Wing Chun Boxing

[jobo]

Oh, so you need emperical data showing that a large amount of so called martial schools teach only katas/forms and drilling?

You insisting on proof of the sky being blue reads as self satire regarding your first demand. You would rather argue than look up, which is why discussing anything with you is a waste of time. You're a wall.

no not a LARGE amount, YES TO a VAST amount which was your claim. So yes please data to back up your claim.

you do know that the sky isn't actually blue, don't you, ? I looked that up once, a long long time ago Why is the Sky Blue?

 

[Martial D]

no not a LARGE amount, YES TO a VAST amount which was your claim. So yes please data to back up your claim.

you do know that the sky isn't actually blue, don't you, ? I looked that up once, a long long time ago Why is the Sky Blue?

large
lärj/
adjective

1. 1.
   of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity.
   "add a large clove of garlic"
   synonyms: big, great, huge, sizable, substantial, immense, enormous, colossal, massive, mammoth, vast, prodigious, tremendous, gigantic, giant, monumental, stupendous, gargantuan, elephantine, titanic, mountainous, monstrous;
   towering, tall, high;
   mighty, voluminous;
   king-size(d), economy-size(d), family-size(d), man-size(d), giant-size(d);
   informaljumbo, whopping, mega, humongous, monster, astronomical, ginormous
   "a large house"

 

[jobo]

large
lärj/
adjective

1. 1.
   of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity.
   "add a large clove of garlic"
   synonyms: big, great, huge, sizable, substantial, immense, enormous, colossal, massive, mammoth, vast, prodigious, tremendous, gigantic, giant, monumental, stupendous, gargantuan, elephantine, titanic, mountainous, monstrous;
   towering, tall, high;
   mighty, voluminous;
   king-size(d), economy-size(d), family-size(d), man-size(d), giant-size(d);
   informaljumbo, whopping, mega, humongous, monster, astronomical, ginormous
   "a large house"

is this supposed to be your data set to support your claim.
just because large and vast,are synonyms doesnt mean they are the same thing,
its quite simple, either you can back it up or you with draw your claim

 

[Martial D]

is this supposed to be your data set to support your claim.

its quite simple, either you can back it up or you with draw your claim

No, this is my data showing your abilities to understand english aren't quite up to snuff.

As per that, as you haven't seemed to be able to follow along so far, I can't imagine anything else I say to you will change that. You want proof large amounts of martial arts and schools dont actually fight? That's such a ridiculous request it's not even worth addressing, even if I thought you might understand the answer.

 

[geezer]

Seriously do you guys just reinvent boxing stuff?

Some of these movements were already in WC's DNA, but looked a bit different, as they evolved to be used in a different time, a different context and against fighters of other systems who fought differently than modern MMA competitors. I believe Alan has done a good job updating old VT/WC to be workable in a modern context.

Did he draw entirely on WC/VT's traditional repertoire? Apparently LFJ thinks so. I think that's laughable. Of course Alan has based a lot of his training and techniques on modern methods. He's a CSL WC guy who pays a lot of attention to all aspects of MMA. And he's a pragmatic MMA coach who teaches his fighters stuff designed to help them in competition.

Sure, as LFJ says, Alan has made videos discussing how his CSL WC or "Chinese Boxing" concepts underlie a lot of what his fighters like Josh Kaldani do. But Kaldani is an MMA fighter who cross trains and puts a lot of good stuff together. I guarantee you, the kind of narrowly defined WC/VT "purity" that LFJ obsesses over is a pretty low priority for these guys compared to finding a pragmatic and effective mix that will win in competition.

 

[LFJ]

Pretty sure your first post off the bat was about WC and WB.

Yeah? Never said I didn't talk about WC and WB.

Compatibility is something I talked about regarding the VT I train and WB.

 

[LFJ]

I believe Alan has done a good job updating old VT/WC to be workable in a modern context.

Where did you hear he has been developing a WC system of his own?

It has been my understanding that he teaches CSLWC.

Sure, as LFJ says, Alan has made videos discussing how his CSL WC or "Chinese Boxing" concepts underlie a lot of what his fighters like Josh Kaldani do.

Not only that, but he has gone to lengths to show how it differs from WB. So, to say he's copying WB is to just not understand what he's doing. You should take a closer look.

 

[jobo]

No, this is my data showing your abilities to understand english aren't quite up to snuff.

As per that, as you haven't seemed to be able to follow along so far, I can't imagine anything else I say to you will change that. You want proof large amounts of martial arts and schools dont actually fight? That's such a ridiculous request it's not even worth addressing, even if I thought you might understand the answer.

the word you used was VAST, that's what I want evidence for,

 

[KPM]

Where did you hear he has been developing a WC system of his own? It has been my understanding that he teaches CSLWC.

---Who said he was developing his own WC system? And you may be shocked to discover that WSLVT is not the only system of Wing Chun that is "concept-based." And maybe further shocked to discover that some Wing Chun lineages are more open-minded than your own. Within CSLWC there is latitude to use the concepts to adapt the APPLICATIONS to the situation as needed.


Not only that, but he has gone to lengths to show how it differs from WB. So, to say he's copying WB is to just not understand what he's doing. You should take a closer look.

---No one said he is copying WB. It was said that he is using exposure to WB as the inspiration to adapt his Wing Chun applications in a similar way for use in a similar situation. This is simply another case of you NEVER being able to admit the validity someone else's points when they disagree with what you believe.

 

[LFJ]

---Who said he was developing his own WC system?

Geezer said Alan has been updating his WC with new training and techniques based on WB/MMA, which would be developing his own WC system.

And you may be shocked to discover that...
And maybe further shocked to discover that...

Not shocked and don't care. I haven't done his online apprenticeship like you, but I'm familiar with what he does.

I also said there is absolutely nothing wrong with being application-based, so long as your applications are realistic. Most MAs are application-based. So?

This is simply another case of you NEVER being able to admit the validity someone else's points when they disagree with what you believe.

Has nothing to do with disagreement. I just don't often accept bald assertions.

How should we know there is validity to your bald assertion that he adapted his WC with inspiration from WB?

Don't just say it's obvious and anyone who doesn't agree is delusional. Actually support the alleged validity of your claim.

Because, as I said, Alan himself has gone to lengths to counter the accusation that he is doing/copying/borrowing from WB, and show that he is doing "Chinese Boxing" he was taught.

 

[geezer]

Where did you hear he has been developing a WC system of his own? It has been my understanding that he teaches CSLWC. Not only that, but he has gone to lengths to show how it differs from WB. So, to say he's copying WB is to just not understand what he's doing. You should take a closer look.

^^^^ I agree with the bolded section above. As I said before, Alan has posted videos explaining how he integrates CSL concepts into his WC and MMA training. So when people watch his fighters like Kaldani and don't see the WC, they do need to look beneath the surface.

On the other hand, if you don't see the adaptation and evolution of what he is doing, especially with his MMA competitors, I suggest that you take a closer look!

Sheesh! I've had it with "WC/VT creationists". What next? "WC/VT flat-earthers"?

 

[Phobius]

^^^^ I agree with the bolded section above. As I said before, Alan has posted videos explaining how he integrates CSL concepts into his WC and MMA training. So when people watch his fighters like Kaldani and don't see the WC, they do need to look beneath the surface.

On the other hand, if you don't see the adaptation and evolution of what he is doing, especially with his MMA competitors, I suggest that you take a closer look!

Sheesh! I've had it with "WC/VT creationists". What next? "WC/VT flat-earthers"?

Those that really have no excuse to call themselves purists are the WT folks. We sort of have an issue where LT states he changed the curriculum and brought in drills and some adaptations after experiencing western martial arts such as boxing etc.

Really makes it hard to argue as purists. Maybe we are missing out...

 

[geezer]

Those that really have no excuse to call themselves purists are the WT folks. We sort of have an issue where LT states he changed the curriculum and brought in drills and some adaptations after experiencing western martial arts such as boxing etc.

Really makes it hard to argue as purists. Maybe we are missing out...

Well that was a big part of why LT originally came up with the transliteration Wing Tsun. At that time, it was unique. Everybody else used either Ving Tsun or Wing Chun. When I first trained under him in the spring of 1980, he told us that he wanted to use a different spelling since what he did was his own take on what he got from Yip Man, and he did not want it to be confused with or judged by anybody else's version. Or as he put it, "I will not be responsible for their mistakes!"

He was also already working on gettiing the term copyrighted and getting some legal protection for his own curriculum, eventually resulting in the term WingTsun (one word) and why everybody who later left the organization but wanted to stay close to the system and curriculum picked another variation using the tell-tale WT letters such as Wing Tjun, Wing Tshun, Wing Tchun, Wing Txun, Winky-dink Tsuny-wun, Weak Tchin, Wanker Tchong... well you get the idea.

The group I hang with, led by LT's former chief administrator in North America (until he broke away a decade ago) got singled our for legal action, so we just went back Grandmaster Yip's preferred spelling: Ving Tsun. And now this has the added benefit of annoying people like LFJ, who think that only his group has dibs on that!

And, I'm not even a purist within this "rebel" circle.

 

[geezer]

This has gotten to be a really long thread, and I have a por memory for such things, so if the following clip has already been posted forgive me. I found it on Youtube after reading a couple of blog entries written by the same guy and posted on another thread in this forum. But, since the title of the video is Wing Chun Boxing, I thought I'd post it here:

Rackemann Wing Chun Boxing

What he's doing with WC and boxing reminds me of what the JKD guys have done, and also in my own area, what the DTE guys do, drawing on Latosa Escrima and Boxing, along with some WC concepts.

My own long range stance (coming from Latosa Escrima) works the same way: rear foot heel-up and springy, weight 50-50 or 60-40 on the front leg, using a lot of leg power, weight drop and rise, and body torque. When I'm in close, I shift more upright, using a back-weighted stance like you'd expect from a WC/WT/VT infighter, ...unless I decide to switch gears again and go to grappling. ....Though, as I'm moving well into my 60's now, I do that a lot less often, and usually regret it afterwards if I do!

 

[LFJ]

Someone just posted this video in another thread. So, that makes at least 3 unrelated lineages that have this idea from Biu-ji.

If you admit it is in the "DNA" of VT/WC, then it was not transplanted. If you want to suggest that everyone is just copying WB, you need to support your claim with actual evidence.

That the action is used in other styles, and that you may have not learned it in your WC/VT/WT is not evidence of origin. It is just your biased supposition.

 

[LFJ]

The guy above also does it with an elbow from the other arm, which WB never does, but Shaolin does, as I showed here.

Since some say Wing Chun is a distillation of Shaolin arts, why would you not look there for possible origins, and instead jump straight to Western Boxing?

Obviously because you're only familiar with WB, and know nothing of other TCMAs that use this same action.

With no evidence that these unrelated lineages got it from WB, it is just an uninformed bias to think so, and a bald assertion to say so.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This has gotten to be a really long thread, and I have a por memory for such things, so if the following clip has already been posted forgive me. I found it on Youtube after reading a couple of blog entries written by the same guy and posted on another thread in this forum. But, since the title of the video is Wing Chun Boxing, I thought I'd post it here:

Rackemann Wing Chun Boxing

What he's doing with WC and boxing reminds me of what the JKD guys have done, and also in my own area, what the DTE guys do, drawing on Latosa Escrima and Boxing, along with some WC concepts.

My own long range stance (coming from Latosa Escrima) works the same way: rear foot heel-up and springy, weight 50-50 or 60-40 on the front leg, using a lot of leg power, weight drop and rise, and body torque. When I'm in close, I shift more upright, using a back-weighted stance like you'd expect from a WC/WT/VT infighter, ...unless I decide to switch gears again and go to grappling. ....Though, as I'm moving well into my 60's now, I do that a lot less often, and usually regret it afterwards if I do!

I just saw the video today and I'll take a look at the this thread from beginning to end. freaking 34 pages worth. Lots of skimming lol. I was glad to see that he fights with the right heel up as much as possible when he punches. It actually verified what I thought would happen. He loses power when he punches with the rear heal continuously up. I can literally see it in the video. In boxing, from what I can tell boxers use the heel like the hammer on a gun. When the heel is down, it is ready to fire (like the hammer being pulled back on a gun). When the heel is up the punch has been fired. You can see what I'm talking about here.

 

[drop bear]

The guy above also does it with an elbow from the other arm, which WB never does, but Shaolin does, as I showed here.

Since some say Wing Chun is a distillation of Shaolin arts, why would you not look there for possible origins, and instead jump straight to Western Boxing?

Obviously because you're only familiar with WB, and know nothing of other TCMAs that use this same action.

With no evidence that these unrelated lineages got it from WB, it is just an uninformed bias to think so, and a bald assertion to say so.

Because western boxing works. You can find a top tier western boxer. Spar him find out if he has methods that work.

And then use those methods.

Like you did with BJJ. Rather than using some obscure grappling art.

 

[drop bear]

I just saw the video today and I'll take a look at the this thread from beginning to end. freaking 34 pages worth. Lots of skimming lol. I was glad to see that he fights with the right heel up as much as possible when he punches. It actually verified what I thought would happen. He loses power when he punches with the rear heal continuously up. I can literally see it in the video. In boxing, from what I can tell boxers use the heel like the hammer on a gun. When the heel is down, it is ready to fire (like the hammer being pulled back on a gun). When the heel is up the punch has been fired. You can see what I'm talking about here.

No. Heel is just up. (In boxing anyway) because you don't go from upright to forwards. It takes to long. You go from forwards to more forwards.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No. Heel is just up. (In boxing anyway) because you don't go from upright to forwards. It takes to long. You go from forwards to more forwards.

Now sure what you mean "Heel is just up"