Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

[Hanzou]

A flintlock pointed at your head and fired will kill you just the same.

Yes, but an AK-47 can do everything the Flintlock can do, but better. This is why one is obsolete, and the other is one of the most common modern weapons on earth.

In the case of martial arts, consider Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj. Classical Jujutsu is for all intents and purposes obsolete at this point in history. However, people still practice it, just like people put on Civil War uniforms and pretend to be civil war soldiers. The difference of course is that those civil war actors know that they're not actual soldiers. Most classical JJ practicioners know they're not fighters (though some are fairly delusional).

Judo and Bjj are the modern expressions of the art, stripped of the issues that bog classical JJ down. Bjj in turn is free of the issues that bog Judo down.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I simply discuss what I've observed from traditional MA and modern MA/Combat sports.

As have others on this forum, which you have often dismissed as anecdotal evidence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, but an AK-47 can do everything the Flintlock can do, but better. This is why one is obsolete, and the other is one of the most common modern weapons on earth.

In the case of martial arts, consider Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj. Classical Jujutsu is for all intents and purposes obsolete at this point in history. However, people still practice it, just like people put on Civil War uniforms and pretend to be civil war soldiers. Judo and Bjj are the modern expressions of the art, stripped of the issues that bog classical JJ down.

I'd consider a better comparison to be a revolver and a Glock 18 (fully automatic handgun). There are things the G18 can do, which are not necessary for getting off a couple (or even the entire cylinder) of good shots in defensive use. And there are some advantages to that revolver, for some situations. The G18 is clearly the more advanced weapon, but that doesn't make it inherently superior in every way for every situation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yes, but an AK-47 can do everything the Flintlock can do, but better. This is why one is obsolete, and the other is one of the most common modern weapons on earth.

In the case of martial arts, consider Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj. Classical Jujutsu is for all intents and purposes obsolete at this point in history. However, people still practice it, just like people put on Civil War uniforms and pretend to be civil war soldiers. The difference of course is that those civil war actors know that they're not actual soldiers. Most classical JJ practicioners know they're not fighters (though some are fairly delusional).

Judo and Bjj are the modern expressions of the art, stripped of the issues that bog classical JJ down. Bjj in turn is free of the issues that bog Judo down.

Which is a false analogy.

 

[Hanzou]

For SD I would use Threat and Awareness Evaluation, Coopers colour codes, Target Hardening, verbal deescalation and running away to avoid a fight.

I have deescalted a Road Rage incident just using The Fence.

What MMA skills would you use?


No more or no less that anyone else who trains for consensual fighting and not for SD. The vast majority of SD skill sets are non physical, and are not taught in sport fighting. I would agree it is easy to transfer those skill to a street fight yes absolutely yes. But agreeing to fight people on the street has nothing to do with SD.

Even when things do get physical, the skills required for consensual fighting are not an ideal fit for SD. Can some high level elite althletes make them work, yes, but if we all had to be high level elite althletes in order to defend ourselves we may as well all just stay home.

Even if you are a high level elite sports fighter it still doesn't mean you have any of the tools needed for SD. Miaquel Falco and Kaue Mena were very skill at consensual fighting, but had no SD skills to avoid their situation, prevent it from escalating, or dealing with multiple opponent or weapons once things did turn violent. So its certainly not "easy".

There are of course some skills which are universal, a good punch is of course always a good punch.


Knives not so much as any idiot can use a knife, but he others yes. I would much rather face an MMA fighter with a baton on the street than face him unarmed in the ring.

I know nothing about guns, but I am sure the people here who do, will tell you that an untrained person with a gun is not going to be anything like as effective as they think they will be under the stress of a live situation.

Just FYI, self defense (deecalation, awareness, etc.) is taught at MMA and Bjj gyms.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd consider a better comparison to be a revolver and a Glock 18 (fully automatic handgun). There are things the G18 can do, which are not necessary for getting off a couple (or even the entire cylinder) of good shots in defensive use. And there are some advantages to that revolver, for some situations. The G18 is clearly the more advanced weapon, but that doesn't make it inherently superior in every way for every situation.

I wouldn't consider classical MAs to be as efficient as a revolver. Again, classical MAs tend to be bogged down by multiple factors which inhibit the development of fighting ability.

 

[Hanzou]

Which is a false analogy.

Nope. There's a reason TKD is abundant, but the karate and Kung Fu styles it derived from are all but extinct. One fits the modern age, and the others don't. Additionally, I would put the current best TKD practicioners in the world against those old masters from centuries ago, and I'd bet that the former would win quite handily. Just like the current Bjj champs and MMA fighters would mop the floor with Maeda and the early Gracies.

In short, older isn't always better.

 

[JP3]

Good self defence is a bunch of techniques that you are most likley to pull off not ones you are not likley to pull off unless unless.

In all the above back and forth, I think this is the single statement I can agree with the most.

I think we can all agree that "What you train is what you do when called upon to have to do it." SD, MMA, streetfight, Passenger 57, Carjacking, etc. You would want to be able to fit what is happening through the prism of yur training and see through that prism to something you have "done before." And... done before preferably very well, over a thousand times. If not, what you come up with is going to be less distance from the left end of the below continuum than to the right end:

THAT DID NOT WORK --- --- --- --- --- --- --- THAT WORKED EXACTLY RIGHT

In the above, it's way better to be Right than left.

I love slipping in political commentary into my posts. Apologies if you didn't find it amusing, I sure did.

 

[Tez3]

Just FYI, self defense (deecalation, awareness, etc.) is taught at MMA and Bjj gyms.

No, in some BJJ gyms perhaps but certainly not even most. Not in MMA gyms.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In short, older isn't always better.

Newer isn't always better and old is not always obsolete.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Again, classical MAs tend to be bogged down by multiple factors which inhibit the development of fighting ability.

Depends on the art and how it is taught.

 

[Headhunter]

Just FYI, self defense (deecalation, awareness, etc.) is taught at MMA and Bjj gyms.

Just an FYI in most gyms it's absolutely not taught

 

[Tez3]

In the end it's comes down to the syllabus taught and the instructors teaching it not the 'age of the art'. I've seen good and bad in most styles, yes, that includes MMA and BJJ, how can it not when the teaching is performed by humans not robots programmed to be teach the same every time, all the time.
No amount of 'my style is best' is going to be true, however 'my style is best for me' yes that certainly can be so.

 

[Hanzou]

Just an FYI in most gyms it's absolutely not taught

It's taught in nearly all Gracie affiliated gyms, it's taught in Gracie Barra gyms, it's taught in 10th Planet Bjj gyms, and it's taught in a good portion of sport Bjj gyms. That would constitute the majority of Bjj gyms.

 

[Hanzou]

No, in some BJJ gyms perhaps but certainly not even most. Not in MMA gyms.

I don't how you guys do it across the pond, but here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to find a legit MMA gym that doesn't offer self defense for women. It's pretty big business over here, and most gyms aren't going to pass up on that money.

 

[JP3]

Probably not hate, but just not the free respect that the TMA'ists used to get when they say they're a Black Belt in whatever, like it often was in the Pre-UFC days. People saw what happened in UFC 1-4 and even 5-15 or so....then it started to filter down to BJJ + Muay Thai, or die.

I agree with the history, but I'd actually bring in what Drop & KangSooDo were talking about in that other thread about the training.

Prior to UFC, very few, and I mean Very Few people actually trained to get in a ring with another bad dude, or lady, and attempt to defeat said other bad dude/lady witht a set of skills that the other person also knew or was likely to know.

UFC was a fight laboratory, plain and simple. I do not carry that to the premise that you did there, Fried Rice, though I agree with the outcome, that in the UFC you had better have had some serious BJJ with Muay Thai training or you were going to be pasted.... Rather, I think that BJJ regular rolling full-tilt boogie lends itself seamlessly witht he UFC style of fighting.

Let's not forget that the Gracie's invented the entire concept of the UFC... and what did they do regularly? Fight just like the UFC at home in Brazil. So that's the grappling side.
On the striking side, Muay Thai is as close a parallel to the type of training that BJJ uses on the ground when translated to a stand-up striking art, i.e. it's all about conditioning, lots and lots and lots of sparring work at high intensity, etc.

What I think is, that if you could get a Wing Chun school (I just pulled them out of the hat because so many of y'all seem to either be, like, or like to talk about WC folks) to train what they do as if they were Always and Only going to be "Duelling" in a ring, or Octagon, or box or cube or parking garage, or emptied out swimming pool (Lionheart, hey... I enjoyed the JCVD movies, cheese sauce and all) with the steady feedback of the trainers (I sort of think that this is/was Yip Man's method, eh?) you'd end up with some very formidable UFC competitors. We already know it doesn't Have to be BJJ, it could just be plain old Judo (see Ronda's success, eh?) and I'd bet that if you took a physical specimen such as a Spetnaz, gave him the mission parameters of the UFC duel thing, he could bring Sambo and Systema to bear in a very effective way.

TO Drop's ever-pervasive point which he thinks, incorrectly, that we all dispute, it is "Training over technique."

Train Right, Do Right. (Maybe I should have stuck a Daniel-san on that, but it's not Miyagi's quote, it's mine so there.)

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Thread drift...but wasn't she singing about Warren Beatty? Thought I remember that from somewhere back in the day...

 

[Tez3]

I don't how you guys do it across the pond, but here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to find a legit MMA gym that doesn't offer self defense for women. It's pretty big business over here, and most gyms aren't going to pass up on that money.

That is not an endorsement, in fact it proves the point I made on a thread about women's self defence. The self defence taught in the vast majority of these classes is pointless, dangerous and extremely misleading. It makes most knowledgeable female martial artists quite angry. It's all about the money and that is disgusting.

 

[CB Jones]

There's a whole generation of me out there, like it or not.

Millenials.....

 

[JP3]

Now I could train rubbish downward elbow on the chance that in self defence someone will throw rubbish double legs. But why would i?

To be aware that it is there? Just thinking. I take your point to mean that, examining probabilities of success is the method with which you're going to evaluate what yu are going to learn... or maybe not to learn, because you did mention it so you already know it is there, but to train it. And by train it, I mean drill it in class repetitively until it's a core thing. I can get behand that idea... up tot he point when I've got to face omeone who knows my tendencies and has a plan in place for me.

I'll give you that it's not likely to happen in a bar brawl situation, but it has happened to me really quickly at judo tournmants, so it ould happen anytime someone has a chance to watch you move duing a match/confrontation, etc. Just something to think about. I found out the hard way that I had a holdover from my TKD days in that I would fight southpaw even though right-handed and right leg/kick dominant.... BECAUSE of the right leg/kick dominance, faster/higher/better control. Al the things you'd like to have in a TKD tournament, get the fastest thing forward if for no other reason than to keep that other fast-mover away from you.

But then that means that you step forward right leg first. Or perhaps I'll put it this way... You Advance your right Foot. Add one more word and you've got my now favorite (for this precise reason) ashi-waza, Deashi-barai. Advanced Foot Sweep. Second match of the Brown Belt Championships in Texas at A&M some years ago, 2nd match of the day and a guy who'd watched my first match saw what I did, waited for it, and sent me off to the consolation bracket to fight for an eventual 3rd. Nice guy, as judoka usually are. I hunted him up after the tournament and he told me he'd spotted the above tendency and planned to use it if I stepped as I had, and sure enough, I stepped on the invisible banana peel. Splat! Ippon! Ack. Ugh. Shame. Pout.