The MMA "cage?" TMA "freedom?"

[jks9199]

Alright, folks, let's bring this thread somewhere back on track, OK?

I think it's got the potential to be a very interesting post, if we drop the "which is better" mindset, and get into the meat of the issues: training modalities.

Both MMA and TMA begin by practicing some specific skill sets, in a rather rote manner. Whether you call it "punching drill #5" or "1-2 combo", or kata or shadow boxing... there's a lot of similarity in the training.

TMA, though, claims that over time, the student moves beyond the rote and begins to create their own responses. MMA, the say, never reach this point because they always have to stay within a rule set. The MMA folks would argue that they don't need to "create" because they're reacting with proven techniques... and that the TMA guy can't really use that "creating stuff" under pressure.

Then there's the whole metaphysical/spiritual side... MMA is "brutal and animalistic" and doesn't nurture the soul... But does rehearsing crushing someone's trachea, breaking their spine, or just dumping the guy on his head really nurture the soul? After all, isn't that what some kata simulate?

 

[Tez3]

Alright, folks, let's bring this thread somewhere back on track, OK?

I think it's got the potential to be a very interesting post, if we drop the "which is better" mindset, and get into the meat of the issues: training modalities.

Both MMA and TMA begin by practicing some specific skill sets, in a rather rote manner. Whether you call it "punching drill #5" or "1-2 combo", or kata or shadow boxing... there's a lot of similarity in the training.

TMA, though, claims that over time, the student moves beyond the rote and begins to create their own responses. MMA, the say, never reach this point because they always have to stay within a rule set. The MMA folks would argue that they don't need to "create" because they're reacting with proven techniques... and that the TMA guy can't really use that "creating stuff" under pressure.

Then there's the whole metaphysical/spiritual side... MMA is "brutal and animalistic" and doesn't nurture the soul... But does rehearsing crushing someone's trachea, breaking their spine, or just dumping the guy on his head really nurture the soul? After all, isn't that what some kata simulate?

I think working within a ruleset means that people do have to come up with their own responses, it means constantly trying to find techniques that aren't so well known to your opponents, to work on ways to change even if it's subtle changes the way we respond to techniques. As someone said, MMA is like physical chess one has to stay imaginative and not constantly bring in the same techniques all the time. I wouldn't argue at all we don't need to create rather our need to create is more pressing because our opponents know the same as us and we have to outwit them so need more creativity not less.

 

[Hand Sword]

Moderators,

Please remove this thread. Thank you.

Mod's, I appreciate your attempts. But as the OP, I still respectfully ask again what I requested before. (Please)

 

[Sukerkin]

Why, HS?

Even the seemingly comedic posts I made early on had an On-Topic point to them. They might not have been couched in the terms normally expected for this subject but the central point was of 'horses for courses'. One hand is not necessarily worse than the other, they just approach the same point from a different direction.

In general, MMA has a different goal than TMA, tho' of course even that differs from person to person.

To my eyes, MMA is focussed on the shorter term goal of victory in a sporting bout whereas, for me, the TMA of Iai is focussed on an endless attempt by me to perfect the techniques that I have been taught.

In the terms of the OP, both build 'cages' for their practitioners. It is just that mine is on a much larger scale, such that I shall never touch the bars on the other side.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why, HS?

Even the seemingly comedic posts I made early on had an On-Topic point to them. They might not have been couched in the terms normally expected for this subject but the central point was of 'horses for courses'. One hand is not necessarily worse than the other, they just approach the same point from a different direction.

In general, MMA has a different goal than TMA, tho' of course even that differs from person to person.

To my eyes, MMA is focussed on the shorter term goal of victory in a sporting bout whereas, for me, the TMA of Iai is focussed on an endless attempt by me to perfect the techniques that I have been taught.

In the terms of the OP, both build 'cages' for their practitioners. It is just that mine is on a much larger scale, such that I shall never touch the bars on the other side.

There is also a fundamental difference in the focus of the training between MMA and TMA. MMA trains to defeat an opponent they may see again later on down the line and that is ok. TMA trains to hopefully never see the same opponent again.

As it applies to fighting MMA is focused on winning the match and TMA is focused on surviving the fight.

This is not to say that they cannot change their focus if necessary but in general if both are trained correctly they are training for difference outcomes

 

[Tez3]

I wonder if people are focusing on 'the cage' a bit too much? We only use a cage because it saves falling out of the ring when grappling! We only used the ring so the spectators could see otherwise mats would be fine, indeed they are used in interclub MMA comps.

 

[Andrew Green]

Traditional styles are bound by rules as well, some of them are a different sort of rules though.

In sparring they have rules, all styles do, you have too.

Outside of that they do as well, and there are a ton of old arguments on what is and what is not part of a style to back that up. If someone really does try to "break the chains" and make things their own, they can only go so far before there peers claim they aren't doing proper "X" style.

There is also a expectation that people not make any changes or improvements until they are really high ranking, which isn't going to happen until you are getting rather old. Yet when we look at all the great innovators in martial arts, pretty much all of them had made their most influential changes when they where rather young.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Mod's, I appreciate your attempts. But as the OP, I still respectfully ask again what I requested before. (Please)

I don't mean to be rude. But posting something puts it in the public domain. I think this conversation is actually going quite well. And, now that we're all contributors to it, I don't think there's justification for making it vanish, even if it's not going the way you'd hoped it would.

That said, I am sorry that it's not going the way you hoped it would.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I wonder if people are focusing on 'the cage' a bit too much? We only use a cage because it saves falling out of the ring when grappling! We only used the ring so the spectators could see otherwise mats would be fine, indeed they are used in interclub MMA comps.

Could be, (technically) I don't train MMA but I have seen a school or two and even though I do not see a cage there if someone talks MMA I think cage.

Also if I were to base all I know of MMA on things like the UFC I would have a view of it much the same as I do of the WWE. But when I look at MMA matches form places like Europe or Asia I get very impressed. I was also very impressed by a gentleman local to me that has an MMA school and an attitude that I wish more martial artists had.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't mean to be rude. But posting something puts it in the public domain. I think this conversation is actually going quite well. And, now that we're all contributors to it, I don't think there's justification for making it vanish, even if it's not going the way you'd hoped it would.

That said, I am sorry that it's not going the way you hoped it would.

:xtrmshock How rude :uhyeah:

Enough talk... let's fight

Cool, I got to use Kung Fu Panda references 3 times today :asian:

 

[ap Oweyn]

"I see you like to chew! So chew... ON MY FIST!!"

Man, I love the opening sequence of that flick.

 

[Tez3]

OH so I see you think MMA is better than FMA then since you neglected to list is as part of MMA...is that it... AND WHAT POINTED STICKS :uhyeah:

Just thought I would get a head start on the silliness to follow

Actually I went to a fight night not long ago and at the interval they did a demo 'stick fight', well it was supposed to be a demo but those guys really got into it, I hate to see them when fighting for real, quite scary I imagine. The crowd loved it, it was skilful, fast and fun to watch. As MMa people we appreciate martial arts, not just a few, all martial arts. I've watched Capoeira demos at MMA fight nights, BJJ demos, and we had the Gurkhas doing a TKD demo at one of our fight nights complete with Kukris. And the crowd loved all of the martial arts.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Actually I went to a fight night not long ago and at the interval they did a demo 'stick fight', well it was supposed to be a demo but those guys really got into it, I hate to see them when fighting for real, quite scary I imagine. The crowd loved it, it was skilful, fast and fun to watch. As MMa people we appreciate martial arts, not just a few, all martial arts. I've watched Capoeira demos at MMA fight nights, BJJ demos, and we had the Gurkhas doing a TKD demo at one of our fight nights complete with Kukris. And the crowd loved all of the martial arts.

The Dog Brothers were supposed to give a stick fight on the UFC early in it's history, but it was rejected as being a little beyond what US audiences would consider acceptable.

http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/articles_ufcletter.html

 

[Brother John]

To "Hand Sword"- (the OP)
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. I may not agree 100%, but I think it accomplished what a decent thread-seed should = made people THINK and then discuss.

I enjoyed reading it because it presents a paradigm shift. When the UFC/Pride....et al....began to become more popular, I recall many MMA guys proclaiming that the MMA was much better and more 'free' than the TMA...but I think that that loses sight of the fact that even the TMA are simply differing approaches to strategy and training. I think that in hindsight we can see that some of the BEST MMA people out there have drawn a great deal of good from studying and training with TMA systems...wether oriental or occidental in origin.

Generally speaking the end-goal or "raison d'etre" for MMA & TMA differs widely, but they also contain a TON of similar qualities and traits. I think that each can GAIN from the study of the other., but when we do....we've got to bear in mind the DIFFERENCES in the rules/restrictions that each limits itself within., because both DO.

Your Brother
John