MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[ShotoNoob]

Quote from Article:
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"The MMA Fighter should always dominate in the cage because that is the natural setting of his training."
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I disagree. Let me say the article was very well written & articulate.
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The weakness lies in making an observation that environment impacts the participant, then concluding that the fighting environment is dominant factor. An of course then we have all kinds of environments.
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My proposition is that within certain bounds, the training of the individual is the dominant factor. I may go to Medical School to be a doctor, OR to Law School to become an attorney. The functional environments for arguments sake are quite different, yet the mind is actively engaged in the performance of each.
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The author to me, takes the side of a Matt Thorton. That you train to actual resistance. So the environment of that resistance, the environment of actual contest defines your skill. The fact that physical activity is involved, the assumption & conclusion are made that martial arts is largely a physical process.
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My maxim is that you train to principle which then enables you to fight. I myself never saw all the disconnect between preparing to fight in the dojo and preparing to fight in MMA. The real overall training variable is the intensity of training to prepare for more difficult opponents. Which is implicit in traditional karate training anyway.
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Sure there are rules specific to MMA. The global answer is that I use the same fundamental skills to punch my opponent in the head, whether I'm targeting the front of the head (allowed in MMA) or in the back of the head (not allowed in MMA).
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The confusion clears when we treat fighting as a mental discipline, not a sport. Traditional karate, TMA is a mental discipline where the conscious decisions rule over the inherent reactions or programmed techniques of sport training. Reflexes & instincts are there, but one is not acting on instinct alone, and which are always subordinate & under guidance of the conscious mind.
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The issue is well illustrated by those who propose that Kyokuhsin karate which does allow hand strikes to the opponent's face, is at a disadvantage when practiced in MMA. The similar--Matt Thorton-like conclusion is drawn that the Kyokushin fighter moving to MMA will have trouble effectively punching to the face, and will not likely be able to handle the MMA fighter who routinely punch to the face under the MMA rule set.
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I pose the answer this way: For the KYO competitor who practices sport (reactions) which omits facing punching, the above assertion will hold.
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For the KYO practitioner who practices mental discipline, the mind simply redirects the hand strikes to the body only, to include the other target above the torso, the face.
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Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a set of really good knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Hanzou]

So you are admitting either it wasn't being taught to its full potential or you didn't understand it. If you were honest you might say that Shotokan didn't suit what you wanted to do. Why bag the style?

Who's bagging the style? Just because it was limiting for me doesn't mean that it would be limiting for other people. I'm sure some people out there feel that Bjj is a limited style, that opinion doesn't bother me at all.

Like I said, you need to grow a thicker skin.

In that case I would suggest that that would indicate an instructor who was insecure in his own knowledge or ability. I would encourage my students to cross train. That way they can understand that what they are learning is a great system and they can tweak it to make it better for them. If they have a specific interest in ground fighting, I would have no problem with them cross training BJJ.

Unfortunately we all have students at some time who just aren't capable of learning.

Or simply become disillusioned with a style, and decide that its time to move on?

Your choice to leave, your loss.

In the years since leaving Shotokan, I've ran across my share of karate practitioners. I'm quite pleased with my decision, and if I could do it over again, I would have just began with Bjj or Judo when I was a kid. The grappling arts are simply a better fit for me for a variety of reasons. The lack of katas, specific stances, board breaking, and 10 year old black belts being big parts of it.

The Kyokushin guys study Kyokushin kata. Sure they were kata leaned by Oyama and taken from Goju and Shotokan but that is the end of it. If someone starts up a freestyle karate school without kata, that is their choice. In the instance you quoted those guys just wanted a full contact fighting style and didn't feel the need for kata, just like you. That doesn't invalidate kata.

Where did I say it invalidated kata? I was simply pointing out to you that there were Japanese masters who changed and altered kata to their liking, proving that its not some sacred cow that can't be changed.

Obviously very few, if any of them, are here on MT.

Actually there's quite a few here on MT. You shouldn't immediately take a critical viewpoint on various MAs as disrespect. Like I said, grow a thicker skin.

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S THE KYOKUSHIN VERSION OF THAT TAIKYOKU KATA SOME LOVE TO HATE:

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EDIT: couldn't get the KYO YT version to work. Put up a Shotokan-derived version.
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TO ALL WHO DON'T GET WHY HERE'S WHY I DON'T NEED A CORNERMAN:
1. The Kyokushin karate curriculum contains basic level kata that physically demonstrates punches to the face or head. So we have kihon & kata in Kyo that train punching technique specifically to the head.
2. I go to KYO kumite in the morning where I can not punch to the head. So I will my body to punch to the body.
3. I go to MMA in the afternoon. I will my body to punch to both the body & the head.
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4. MATT THORTON CAMP: Oh, the Matt thorton resistance camp cries. But in Kyokushin sparring you can't punch to head so your body, your thinking will not be used to doing head punches. When MMA sparring in the afternoon.
5. SHOTONOOB: No problem to make the adjustment. Replace "will" with KIME. I'm not just thinking about throwing a punch, I'm mentally KIME'ing a punch. I can KIME a punch [technique] low (the low block in Taikyoku kata), I can KIME a punch middle (the front middle punch in Taikyou kata), or I can KIME punch high (the front high punch in Taikyoku kata).
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Under traditional karate, the physical form of the move is not the driver. Repetition of physical moves over & over is not the driver, Mental discipline is the driver and the physical technique the vector.
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So in kihon KYO done to traditional karate standards (TMU) we KIME low when it makes sense to physically make a low technique. we KIM middle when a middle technique is called for, and we KIME high in MMA when a high technique works or is called for. The process of KIME in actual fighting is the universal driver, not re actively do layups because basketball allows them....
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That's my thesis of where TMA is on the "circle," compared to sport-based fighting we see conventionally in MMA....

 

[ShotoNoob]

When I engaged in traditional martial arts, I came to see the carryover from Shotokan, the Taikyoku kata, to Kyokushin, the Pinan Kata Sono Ni kata, Korean karate such as TAng Soo Do-- Hyung Ee bu hyung example above, the common, classical development of mental discipline, KIME, et al. across the traditional karate arts...
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For K-Man, the same dynamic would be first found in the Pinan Nidan kata of certain Okinawan karate systems.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The Article's Author Calls for Resistance Training to Prove TMA.
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The Author Calls for the reality testing of someone trying to punch you in the face. Again, the Matt Thorton idea, in a nutshell. The Author says, "Perhaps your movements are perfect but you have no concept of timing or strategy."
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I'm all for reality testing. What I am really for is mental discipline.
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What the author should have said is," the TMA practitioner (or Matt thorton MMA practitioner) who is acting out physically, repeating physical moves he has been shown and recreating a physical exercise, will have no concept of timing or strategy. IOW, NO KIME. The active mind is all concentrated at-- I took a step the way I was shown. This is the very beginning phase of TMA. We are just memorizing physical steps. In sports, we hone that memorization to an extremely high level so layups become reactive, 2nd nature.
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In TMA, we're starting the same but going somewhere else. We are going to KIME. K_MAN, brought up the Shotokan (Okinawan) term "mushin." Where's mushin taught in basketball? Where's mushin in Matt's alive free-contact sparring? It might be around somewhere. In traditional karate we are striving through practice of the traditional exercises, mental development as the main capability. Mental development that then melds, yet controls & direct the physical actions at will, in a precise and targeted specific manner.
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In Hyung Ee Bu above. Rolles Gracie reaches for my leg for a single leg TD. I step and throw off his cadence in the attack. I low block and knock or impede his reaching arm. Rolles stunned at the decisiveness of my action backs up an regroups for a body grab. I step in a punch him in the face as his arms extend to my torso for the TD. THE REAL PROCESS IS NOT IN THE SIMULATED MOVES, IT'S INTERNAL, THE DEVELOPING MIND CONTROLLING PRECISELY THE BODY'S STRENGTH & MOVEMENT IN A DELIBERATE WAY.
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The reason TMA's have no concept of strategy of timing or strategy is because the mind is lazy. Rather than develop the mental abilities, acquire the mental qualifies spelled out in the Shotokan karate manual or in the Tang Soo do manual, they want to learn a move, then bust-a-move on their opponent. The latter is Matt Thorton style, not TMA.
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If you claim to be a TMA and the bolded quote above fits you.... Don't throw a punch without a corner-man....saying how to do it or how to change it. To me, the FIRST CAUSE kata tell me to KIME low when needed, under the aegis of Zanshin. Under the implementation of KIME. Under the unbrella of Mushin.
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This stuff is not simple to comprehend, train and even harder to enact. This, however is what TMA is doing. When done competently, the martial skill level eclipse conventional MMA many fold.
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KATA CRITICS: over & out....

 

[drop bear]

Who's bagging the style? Just because it was limiting for me doesn't mean that it would be limiting for other people. I'm sure some people out there feel that Bjj is a limited style, that opinion doesn't bother me at all.

Like I said, you need to grow a thicker skin.




Or simply become disillusioned with a style, and decide that its time to move on?





In the years since leaving Shotokan, I've ran across my share of karate practitioners. I'm quite pleased with my decision, and if I could do it over again, I would have just began with Bjj or Judo when I was a kid. The grappling arts are simply a better fit for me for a variety of reasons. The lack of katas, specific stances, board breaking, and 10 year old black belts being big parts of it.



Where did I say it invalidated kata? I was simply pointing out to you that there were Japanese masters who changed and altered kata to their liking, proving that its not some sacred cow that can't be changed.



Actually there's quite a few here on MT. You shouldn't immediately take a critical viewpoint on various MAs as disrespect. Like I said, grow a thicker skin.

Ironically the kata no kata thing is now being reflected in grappling with gi and no gi. With the argument that you don't fight in one so why train in one? As well as some commentary about bjj being a bit precious.

Personally I am not fussed and will do either.

 

[Steve]

Ironically the kata no kata thing is now being reflected in grappling with gi and no gi. With the argument that you don't fight in one so why train in one? As well as some commentary about bjj being a bit precious.

Personally I am not fussed and will do either.

lol. You're making that up, unless these people are suggesting it's typical to fight in board shorts and a cup.

Regarding Bjj being precious... Well, that might be a little true,

 

[drop bear]

lol. You're making that up, unless these people are suggesting it's typical to fight in board shorts and a cup.

Regarding Bjj being precious... Well, that might be a little true,

Because we now have variations on themes like sub wrestling and no gi competitions. There becomes this divide to what you can use gi and no gi. Then you have this divide between what you can use punching and no punching.

And the argument is you can use no gi in a gi but cant use gi in no gi as easily.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And the argument is you can use no gi in a gi but cant use gi in no gi as easily.

If you start from no gi, it's easy to move into gi. The other way around may not be true. Of course you can consider:

- gi as winter time ski slope combat skill.
- no gi as summer time sand beach combat skill.

 

[Hanzou]

Ironically the kata no kata thing is now being reflected in grappling with gi and no gi. With the argument that you don't fight in one so why train in one? As well as some commentary about bjj being a bit precious.

Personally I am not fussed and will do either.

I don't see the similarities honestly. Both gi and nogi have pretty straightforward and clear applications. Hard to say the same about kata.

 

[Hanzou]

If you start from no gi, it's easy to move into gi. The other way around may not be true. Of course you can consider:

- gi as winter time ski slope combat skill.
- no gi as summer time sand beach combat skill.

I don't agree. Guys who go from nogi to gi have a bit of a rougher time dealing with the extra handles that gis provide. I went from gi to nogi, and had little issue. Nogi guys get caught in collar chokes constantly for example.

 

[Steve]

Because we now have variations on themes like sub wrestling and no gi competitions. There becomes this divide to what you can use gi and no gi. Then you have this divide between what you can use punching and no punching.

And the argument is you can use no gi in a gi but cant use gi in no gi as easily.

That's actually not true though. No Gi you can do a lot of things due to the lack of friction. Guys with no Gi experience get very frustrated when they put in a jacket.

I get your point. I just think it's funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't agree. Guys who go from nogi to gi have a bit of a rougher time dealing with the extra handles that gis provide. I went from gi to nogi, and had little issue. Nogi guys get caught in collar chokes constantly for example.

There are a set of special skills (such as "how to break monster grips") that will be needed in Gi and there is no argument on that.

If all your throws depend heavily on "sleeve hold" and "lapel hold", when your opponent has T-shirt on, you will have hard time to make your throws work.

On the other hand, this throw will work in both gi and no gi.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't see the similarities honestly. Both gi and nogi have pretty straightforward and clear applications. Hard to say the same about kata.

Not really. I find the applications in kata straightforward and clear.
It's probably a mistake to assume that others have the same comprehension problems that you do.

 

[Hanzou]

There are a set of special skills (such as "how to break monster grips") that will be needed in Gi and there is no argument on that.

If all your throws depend heavily on "sleeve hold" and "lapel hold", when your opponent has T-shirt on, you will have hard time to make your throws work. Also without Gi, it's hard to pull and some pulling set up will be hard to apply.

And see, this is kind of funny because takedowns/throws in Bjj tend to be Nogi, unlike Judo throws that usually grip the lapel and sleeve.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And see, this is kind of funny because takedowns/throws in Bjj tend to be Nogi, unlike Judo throws that usually grip the lapel and sleeve.

Do BJJ "pull guard" and "jump guard" both require "double lapel hold"? How will a BJJ guy execute his "leg lift (Uchi Mata)" throw?

In no gi, the "leg lift" sleeve hold and lapel hold can be replaced by arm wrap and under hook.

 

[Hanzou]

Do BJJ "pull guard" and "jump guard" both require "double lapel hold"?

Good question. I don't tend to pull guard, mainly because I'm too big to be jumping on people, and I personally don't like to start from guard position. You'd have to ask someone who does it. I know it can be done in nogi because it's done in competition all the time.

In no gi, the "leg lift" sleeve hold and lapel hold can be replaced by arm wrap and under hook.

Yep, that's how it's done.

 

[drop bear]

That's actually not true though. No Gi you can do a lot of things due to the lack of friction. Guys with no Gi experience get very frustrated when they put in a jacket.

I get your point. I just think it's funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes but you are taking advantages away when you take the gi away. And have to contend with less handles and more slipperiness.

And the game changes. Now whether you are going to fight a guy in gi type clothing or in less suitable clothing becomes the issue.

 

[drop bear]

And see, this is kind of funny because takedowns/throws in Bjj tend to be Nogi, unlike Judo throws that usually grip the lapel and sleeve.

There is some judo that works and some that needs to be modified. Wrestling works pretty much regardless.

 

[drop bear]

Just a quick random vid and that top guys have an opinion on this gi no gi business.