MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have found that people who primarily train no gi are very, very frustrated when they first start
training in a gi. Where as people who predominantly train in a gi transition easily to no gi.

 

[K-man]

Who's bagging the style? Just because it was limiting for me doesn't mean that it would be limiting for other people. I'm sure some people out there feel that Bjj is a limited style, that opinion doesn't bother me at all.

If that was all you have ever said, we wouldn't be having this conversation. In all my time at MT nobody has bagged other styles as you have done. I have not seen anyone bag BJJ as a style, ever.

Like I said, you need to grow a thicker skin.

And I think you should stick to the facts and stop twisting the truth.

Or simply become disillusioned with a style, and decide that its time to move on?

Again, if you had done that we wouldn't be here. It was your dummy spit on Shotokan that started it. I became disillusioned with Japanese Goju in a manner of speaking but I don't dump on it. It was an excellent grounding, but when I saw the Okinawan style I had to change.

In the years since leaving Shotokan, I've ran across my share of karate practitioners. I'm quite pleased with my decision, and if I could do it over again, I would have just began with Bjj or Judo when I was a kid. The grappling arts are simply a better fit for me for a variety of reasons. The lack of katas, specific stances, board breaking, and 10 year old black belts being big parts of it.

Lol! We don't have junior black belts and I am against giving out black belts who can't live up to their rank. I don't even teach juniors. I have no issue with someone moving on and I have no issue if someone says I would have been better doing something different. Hindsight has 20/20 vision. I would have started with Okinawan Goju knowing what I know now but it wasn't available to me at that time. I don't for a moment regret the training I did.

Where did I say it invalidated kata? I was simply pointing out to you that there were Japanese masters who changed and altered kata to their liking, proving that its not some sacred cow that can't be changed.

So why throw out kata if it is a valid form of training? Yes, may have been Japanese masters who changed kata and there were many others who didn't. Were the changes cosmetic or was there a change of the applications? Perhaps you would like to post a reference to these changes so we could look into it more deeply.

Actually there's quite a few here on MT. You shouldn't immediately take a critical viewpoint on various MAs as disrespect. Like I said, grow a thicker skin.

Like I said, stop bagging other styles and other people. There are light years between 'a critical viewpoint' and your comments.

 

[elder999]

And see, this is kind of funny because takedowns/throws in Bjj tend to be Nogi, unlike Judo throws that usually grip the lapel and sleeve.

Almost all judo throws have alternate grips for no gi....though not all schools teach them.....I particularly like tai otoshi with a throat grip....you like Ronda Rousey's no-gi workout. Do you actually think she invented that?

I mean, do you really think there's anything she knows from judo that Gene LeBell, and Gokor, and Garo Parisyan didn't already know?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Where as people who predominantly train in a gi transition easily to no gi.

Have to disagree with you on this. When you switch from gi to no gi, you will lose the ability to use:

- "pulling" to set up pushing,
- monster grips to disable your opponent's movement.
- stiff arms to hold your opponent away.
- ...

IMO, not to be able to pull can be the major concern in no gi. Of course you can pull your opponent's:

- neck,
- wrist,
- elbow,
- shoulder,
- ...

Since it's different pulling from the lapel pulling, you may need to train those new pulling from ground zero if you have not done that before.

The Judo foot sweep is a good example. It may require to use pushing to set up pulling.

 

[drop bear]

So why throw out kata if it is a valid form of training? Yes, may have been Japanese masters who changed kata and there were many others who didn't. Were the changes cosmetic or was there a change of the applications? Perhaps you would like to post a reference to these changes so we could look into it more deeply.

You are going to have to cope with the idea that not everybody likes kata as well though.

There are going to be different levels of commitment to different sorts of training.

Otherwise everybody is going to be style bashing every time they have an opinion.

It is exactly like the gi no gi thing. Yet nobody is dummy spitting over it.

 

[Buka]

An MMAist, a TMAist and a McDojoite walk into a organic biker bar owned by a bisexual boxer and his Republican wife. A religious arguement blares over the speakers as the patrons, gathered around lap tops and tablets opened to Martial Talk, argue in sign language with one hand while snapping their fingers to the tune of West Side Story with the other.

A man stands and asks, "Am I the meanest, am I the prettiest, am I the baddest mofo low down around this town?"

Fortunately, nobody gives a F, someone yells "Last Call" and the joke ends. Might be a good idea for this thread.

 

[K-man]

You are going to have to cope with the idea that not everybody likes kata as well though.

There are going to be different levels of commitment to different sorts of training.

Otherwise everybody is going to be style bashing every time they have an opinion.

It is exactly like the gi no gi thing. Yet nobody is dummy spitting over it.

I don't have an issue with people not liking kata. I don't have an issue with people who don't wish to learn kata. I am the first to agree that you don't need kata to fight. I have an issue when someone with no understanding of kata goes out of his way continuously to dump on it. That goes way beyond opinion.

I could have the opinion that ABC style doesn't have enough ground game. I could have yet he opinion that XYZ style wouldn't stand up in the ring. That's perfectly ok. What is not ok is when I call ABC style a total waste of time or XYZ style is useless and they should throw out their kata and instead do some proper training. There is a vast difference about discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a style in a respectful manner and the type of rhetoric we have had to put up with for the past 12 months. That type of disrespectful posting belongs on forums like Bullshido where anything goes.

As to being anything like Gi/no Gi ... nothing like that at all. That is just opinion of two different ways of grappling. No one is dumping on one way or the other.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Have to disagree with you on this. When you switch from gi to no gi, you will lose the ability to use:

- "pulling" to set up pushing,
- monster grips to disable your opponent's movement.
- stiff arms to hold your opponent away.
- ...

IMO, not to be able to pull can be the major concern in no gi. Of course you can pull your opponent's:

- neck,
- wrist,
- elbow,
- shoulder,
- ...

Since it's different pulling from the lapel pulling, you may need to train those new pulling from ground zero if you have not done that before.

The Judo foot sweep is a good example. It may require to use pushing to set up pulling.

Your welcome to think that and it may be true for you personally but most exponents of BJJ will agree that it is an easy transition to no gi. While someone who is just starting training in the gi from a grappling background will have a harder time. I had this conversation with a BJJ instructor just the other day and we both agreed. Personally, I have grappled with many collegiate level wrestlers through the years and always enjoyed it when they started using the gi. It slowed them down and I was able to attack in ways they could not defend. They were very frustrated on average.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Almost all judo throws have alternate grips for no gi....though not all schools teach them.....I particularly like tai otoshi with a throat grip....you like Ronda Rousey's no-gi workout. Do you actually think she invented that?

I mean, do you really think there's anything she knows from judo that Gene LeBell, and Gokor, and Garo Parisyan didn't already know?

I've never seen tai otoshi with a throat grip and I'm having a hard time visualizing it. Do you have any video clips?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Admittedly this was a long time ago (Enter the Dragon was a brand new movie), and I was just a kid, but I can't remember any throws, that I learned in Japanese Jujutsu, that grabbed the Gi. The arm, the person the legs but never the Gi all by itself.

 

[drop bear]

Admittedly this was a long time ago (Enter the Dragon was a brand new movie), and I was just a kid, but I can't remember any throws, that I learned in Japanese Jujutsu, that grabbed the Gi. The arm, the person the legs but never the Gi all by itself.

I did jj as a kid. There were definitely gi only throws.

 

[elder999]

I've never seen tai otoshi with a throat grip and I'm having a hard time visualizing it. Do you have any video clips?

No. No video. I usually don't even talk about it, or show it to lots of people.....

Imagine it this way, though:instead of from the kumi kata position, tori is responding to a strike or weapon attack-the weapon arm is intercepted by stepping in and capturing with one hand, while the opposite hand forcefully strikes/seizes the throat-tori has almost stepped into a front stance, and simply turns into tai otoshi......naturally, we don't get to practice this one too much-though we do practice it, from time to time....I think in Ch'ang Shih Tai Chi Chuan it's called monkey seizes peach, but that's all I'm gonna say about it here, Tony....

I did jj as a kid. There were definitely gi only throws.

Or, there were throws that you only practiced gripping the gi, in order to practice safely, and didn't ever try to imagine how you'd do them to someone in a T-shirt, or no shirt at all......??

 

[Xue Sheng]

I did jj as a kid. There were definitely gi only throws.

I don't doubt that, but I don't remember any, but then things were different in MA over 40 years ago, we didn't have a mat either, just a hard carpeted floor, Although it would not surprise me if there were Gi grab throws, I just don't remember them

 

[lklawson]

I'm talking about modern Judo, not Judo at the turn of the 20th century.

You mean the Judo that people, still alive and training, complain has been too sportified by inclusion in the Olympics who then, after complaining about the Olympics, continue thence to teach Judo as they were taught, in direct line back to turn of the century? That Judo?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[elder999]

You mean the Judo that people, still alive and training, complain has been too sportified by inclusion in the Olympics who then, after complaining about the Olympics, continue thence to teach Judo as they were taught, in direct line back to turn of the century? That Judo?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

QFT, and because I can't "like," and "agree, and "funny," at the same time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but most exponents of BJJ will agree that it is an easy transition to no gi. ..., I have grappled with many collegiate level wrestlers through the years and always enjoyed it when they started using the gi. It slowed them down and I was able to attack in ways they could not defend. They were very frustrated on average.

The gi and no gi may not make much different in the ground game. it makes a big difference in the stand up game. Since a BJJ guy still have to play the stand up game before he can play the ground game, the gi and no gi will affect him as well.

The reason that you can "slow down" your wrestler opponent's attack is because the gi. When you have your hand on your opponent's upper collar lapel, it's very difficult for him to drop down and applies "single leg" on you. When he shoots at your leg, a push on your upper collar lapel grip can stop his forward movement. Since your opponent has to deal with your "grip" before he can apply technique on you, you can "slow him down". In no gi, you can't do this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never seen tai otoshi with a throat grip and I'm having a hard time visualizing it. Do you have any video clips?

The throat grip is used for "pushing". Since the "leg block (tai otoshi)" will need pulling, it won't work well. Since the "leg block (tai otoshi)" and "front cut (Osoto Gari)" are very similar. One use pulling and one use pushing. May be it's used in the "front cut (Osoto Gari)" instead. The "throat grip" can be used as "side way neck pushing" as well. That may integrate better with the "leg block (tai otoshi)" body rotation.

Here is the "leg block (tai otoshi)".

and here is the "front cut (Osoto Gari)".

 

[elder999]

The "throat grip" can be used as "side way neck pushing" as well. That may integrate better with the "leg block (tai otoshi)" body rotation.

Mmm, yeah,. That'd be tai otoshi gripping the throat, wouldn't it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Mmm, yeah,. That'd be tai otoshi gripping the throat, wouldn't it?

Since the "throat grip" has to change into "side neck palm push", whether it should still be called as "throat grip" or not can be questionable. I like the "throat grip" very much. It's an excellent contact point for no gi. Not sure it's commonly used in Judo though.

In the following clip, if he spins to his left instead of goes forward, it will be "leg block (tai otoshi)" with "throat grip" (or "side neck palm push").

 

[elder999]

I like the "throat grip" very much. It's an excellent contact point for no gi. Not sure it's commonly used in Judo though.

Not "used" in judo at all..............
..............but some people teach it.