Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, as you are the thread starter I`d like to ask what you think is the answer?

I personally believe that those styles are absent from NHB competitions because they're no longer truly designed for actual fighting, but for cultural preservation. Much like dance, and other performing arts. I'd like to be shown otherwise, but the reasoning I'm getting out of this thread isn't really swaying that belief. I mean the evidence is pretty overwhelming. There's no one in NHB competitions coming into the ring looking like this;

Which leads me to believe that those stances and hand techniques are impractical for actual fighting applications. I would be thrilled to see someone break out in something like that in UFC, but somehow I think that's never going to happen.

For example, there's a fantastic style in Brazil called Capoeira. Very lovely movements, cool looking kicks and body movements, great evasion techniques, etc. However, even the masters of the style will tell you that its not for fighting, they'll happily admit that its more about dance, music, exercise, and learning about Afro-Brazilian culture. This admission occurred because Capoeira stylists got their butts kicked in Vale Tudo and other major competitions throughout Brazil. Despite this though, Capoeira is slowly growing in popularity because its a great exercise and dance routine.

I think some TMA styles should be as honest with their students as the Capoeira mestres are.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah… you're still thinking that all martial arts are the same, have the same ideals, the same emphasis, the same purpose, the same aims, and more… and you're wrong. This example is, to put it simply, rather pointless. Boxing, or at least Western Hands, is a large component of MMA skill sets… so of course they can box… not to the level of a pro-boxer themselves, of course, but they're hardly going out of their major comfort zone. Find me a guy trained only in MMA who can get through an Iaido competition and you'll have an argument.

The difference being that a MMA guy has never trained in the art of Japanese sword drawing. However, a Kung Fu, JJJ, or Karate practitioner should be trained in stopping kicks, punches, and grappling, which is what MMA fighting is. In other words, if a traditional martial artist can stop a wrestler in the street, why can't they stop them in a ringed arena?

And again, who says that traditional martial arts are unarmed…? As far as there being no reason that a system shouldn't be fully capable, yes, there are many, many reasons… ranging from mechanical, to cultural, to tactical, to strategic preferences, to, well, everything to do with the art in question.

What mechanic, tactical, cultural, etc. preferences would prevent a Praying Mantis stylist from being able to prevent a wrestler from taking them down and turning their face into hamburger?

Again, its a dubious argument to say that arts that present themselves as fighting arts, and promote their self defense attributes, cannot perform those abilities against fully resisting opponents from other disciplines because of rules or cultural limitations. Bjj, MT, Boxing, etc. come from different places, yet still work perfectly fine in a MMA bout.

Really? Which ones? I think you'll find that the "similar types of events" aren't really that similar…

Mantis kung fu came out of this;

Lei tai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's more of course.

Really? They wanted to showcase their art, they helped set the whole thing up, they helped design the surface (too slow and soft for the strikers to really get the purchase, speed, and power they were used to), and picked the guys they were going up against… but you can't see how that proves anything? And TMAs are "primarily striking arts"? Not any of my TMAs, mate…

Even if all that's true, Bjj is still a staple of MMA competitions. So clearly there was substance behind the shameless promotion. Another way to look at it was that the Gracies were attempting to being legitimacy back to the martial arts after an era of frauds, scam artists, and shoddy practitioners. After the UFC, all MAs had a standard by which to be judged in terms of effectiveness. Some like the standard, some don't, but clearly the MAs are better because of the first UFC.

Going to the ground is a dumb thing to do… in the majority of contexts. In an environment such as the UFC/MMA competitions, it's not. Once again, this is not the definitive form of "fighting" you seem to think it is…

Dumb in what context? I can think of several reasons why going to the ground might be the smart thing to do.

Despite that though, don't you think there's a problem when a martial artist gets taken to the ground and is essentially helpless? Just because you don't want to get taken down, doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there that can't take you down.

 

[K-man]

Okay, but to use your example, there IS grappling in many Karate and Kung Fu styles. Why would a Choy Li Fut or Prayin Mantis practitioner for example need to go learn Bjj or Wrestling when their art has grappling and joint locks within the system already?

Okay, but then comes the other question; Why are we not seeing anyone enter the UFC or Bellator, and break out in Kung Fu or Karate hand techniques, footwork, or stances?

BJJ and wrestling are predominantly ground fighting. Okinawan karate is grappling without going to the ground. If I go to the ground I will be trying to get back on my feet ASAP. I don't want to be on the ground. But if I wanted to compete in MMA I would have to improve my ground fighting ability. Fighting on the ground is predominantly for sport. In real life situations you don't want to be on the ground for any prolonged period.

As for karate hand and foot techniques, you see them all the time in stand up grappling. You just don't recognise them.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQd0DFPtBec

 

[K-man]

Leaving off the critique… are we then just defining TMA as "non-sporting"? I don't know that I'd agree with that classification… there are sporting "traditional" systems… and non-sporting non-traditional ones (which is how I'd define Krav Maga, really)…

I don't for one minute consider Krav as 'traditional' MA. However, I would argue it is no different to Kyokushin karate as to its age and origins, or Shotokan which is not the style that Funakoshi developed. How is TKD traditional in the proper sense when it was a blending of styles just 60 years ago? So yes, for me it is non traditional non sporting. But I would say in the same context that both Kyokushin and TKD are non traditional sporting MAs in today's world. This is what makes it so difficult to hold a sensible conversation. Everyone has a different idea of what makes an art 'traditional'.
:asian:

 

[Reedone816]

Why tma is hard to move to mma, simply because of the rule and pure mmartist growth.
For someone to truly adapted to their tma it took a long time, and they need to learn to adapt their techniques to comply with the rules, and due to that limitation they are at disadvantage against someone who has mma as their main art.
If only the mma rules still like the dark ages of ufc, maybe tma has more chance.
And don't forget, mma still a growing sport, many new techniques surfaced that came from their traditional roots, silva front kick, machida's shotokan footwork, pettis' kicks, and this week i saw that spinning jump kick is working in mma...
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

 

[skribs]

My opinion is that TMA and MMA have different philosophies. Basically everything that is banned in competition is what you want to use in self defense. You want to hit soft targets, break bones, attack the senses...none of that has a place in MMA.

I also think that popularity increases quality. Most MMA instructors teach the common core, so most MMA fighters learn that...and grow up to teach it...

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ and wrestling are predominantly ground fighting. Okinawan karate is grappling without going to the ground. If I go to the ground I will be trying to get back on my feet ASAP. I don't want to be on the ground. But if I wanted to compete in MMA I would have to improve my ground fighting ability. Fighting on the ground is predominantly for sport. In real life situations you don't want to be on the ground for any prolonged period.

I think you would agree that an Okinawan Karateka can defend themselves against a wrestler trying to take them down yes? So why exactly can't an Okinawan Karateka defend themselves against a wrestler trying to take them down in a ring or arena?

Additionally, if you can escape from a grappler on the ground in a SD situation, why couldn't you escape from a grappler in a ring or arena?

 

[Hanzou]

My opinion is that TMA and MMA have different philosophies. Basically everything that is banned in competition is what you want to use in self defense. You want to hit soft targets, break bones, attack the senses...none of that has a place in MMA.

Actually all of that is in place in MMA. Bones are broken, soft spots are targeted, and people constantly get their senses jacked up from blows to the head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's no one in NHB competitions coming into the ring looking like this;

TMA stances are used for different weight distribution and different purpose.

The "golden rooster" stance is used for kicks, knee lifting throw, .... The "cat stance (empty stance)" is the initial motion when you move forward or before you raise your leg for kicking. The "horse stance" is used for

- hip throw,
- shoulder throw,
- embracing throw,
- firemen's carry,
- ...

 

[K-man]

I think you would agree that an Okinawan Karateka can defend themselves against a wrestler trying to take them down yes? So why exactly can't an Okinawan Karateka defend themselves against a wrestler trying to take them down in a ring or arena?

Additionally, if you can escape from a grappler on the ground in a SD situation, why couldn't you escape from a grappler in a ring or arena?

In both examples you have here you are talking about people specialising in an art. A wrestler is specialising in taking an opponent down or throwing them. At the same time, in his training, he is learning how to not be taken down or thrown. The same thing with the grappler. A grappler is specialising in dominating on the ground, preventing escape to get to a submission. For example passing the guard. And once again both these guys are training to compete in a sporting situation.

Coming back to your Okinawan karateka. He may well be able to prevent the wrestler taking him down. Eiichi Myazato who succeeded Chojun Miyagi in Goju Ryu was a 7th dan Judoka and obviously passed on his knowledge of grappling to his students, in particular the man I look to for inspiration and guidance, Masaji Taira who is himself a 4th dan in judo. I'm sure they would handle themselves against a wrestler in any situation if required.

How would they go against a grappler if they were taken to the ground? Who knows? Who cares? I know for sure I wouldn't want to be on the ground with Taira Sensei.

But Okinawan Goju is not a sporting style of martial art and what you don't seem to understand is that none of the people I have met or train with have any desire to compete in tournaments. In MMA you are training to fight in a competition, in Okinawan Goju we are not. We are not training to fight at all if you look at the self defence aspect of it. In MMA you are training to compete against another trained athlete, normally of the same weight. In karate we are preparing mainly to defend against an attack from someone who is typically not highly trained and may well be considerably larger. Even in that statement there is a huge difference between sport and our training. In sport you are penalised for not attacking or for moving away. In a more traditional MA you are rewarded for each of those, not to mention that it is far easier to defend your position than to break through an opponent's.

“To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
:asian:

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Wasn't there a shaolin monk knocking people out in K1 or something?

Whats NHB, No Holds Barred? Does such a thing exist in legal competition? Is biting allowed? John Saxon gets out of Bolo's arm bar in Enter The Dragon by biting his leg.

Is grappling/ground fighting such a big advantage outside of a cage with its nice smooth, even floor, confined space & walls to help you stay on top?


Honest questions that reading this thread has got me wondering about.

 

[Hanzou]

In both examples you have here you are talking about people specialising in an art. A wrestler is specialising in taking an opponent down or throwing them. At the same time, in his training, he is learning how to not be taken down or thrown. The same thing with the grappler. A grappler is specialising in dominating on the ground, preventing escape to get to a submission. For example passing the guard. And once again both these guys are training to compete in a sporting situation.

Coming back to your Okinawan karateka. He may well be able to prevent the wrestler taking him down. Eiichi Myazato who succeeded Chojun Miyagi in Goju Ryu was a 7th dan Judoka and obviously passed on his knowledge of grappling to his students, in particular the man I look to for inspiration and guidance, Masaji Taira who is himself a 4th dan in judo. I'm sure they would handle themselves against a wrestler in any situation if required.

How would they go against a grappler if they were taken to the ground? Who knows? Who cares? I know for sure I wouldn't want to be on the ground with Taira Sensei.

You didn't answer the question.....

But Okinawan Goju is not a sporting style of martial art and what you don't seem to understand is that none of the people I have met or train with have any desire to compete in tournaments. In MMA you are training to fight in a competition, in Okinawan Goju we are not. We are not training to fight at all if you look at the self defence aspect of it. In MMA you are training to compete against another trained athlete, normally of the same weight. In karate we are preparing mainly to defend against an attack from someone who is typically not highly trained and may well be considerably larger. Even in that statement there is a huge difference between sport and our training. In sport you are penalised for not attacking or for moving away. In a more traditional MA you are rewarded for each of those, not to mention that it is far easier to defend your position than to break through an opponent's.

Interestingly, we have the exact same philosophy in Bjj. The difference of course being that Bjj provides an outlet for those who prefer sport/competition, as well as an outlet for those who prefer the self defense aspect of the art. I'm more curious about traditional Karate clearly being developed for downing larger opponents, yet somehow the "rules" of competition nullifies that ability in some fashion. How does that happen exactly? I mean, there's certainly techniques in Bjj that you couldn't use in a competition, so we just don't use them in competition. However, those rules don't really nullify the underlining effectiveness of our art. So I'm wondering why such rules do that to traditional arts.

 

[Hanzou]

Wasn't there a shaolin monk knocking people out in K1 or something?

Whats NHB, No Holds Barred? Does such a thing exist in legal competition? Is biting allowed? John Saxon gets out of Bolo's arm bar in Enter The Dragon by biting his leg.

Biting during an armbar is a great way to get your arm snapped.

Is grappling/ground fighting such a big advantage outside of a cage with its nice smooth, even floor, confined space & walls to help you stay on top?


Honest questions that reading this thread has got me wondering about.

Keep in mind, when someone is grappling with you, you're going to be the one on the ground getting your back burned over the hot lava rocks you're fighting on. A superior grappler is not going to let you get a dominant position.

Also, its not the confined space and walls that help keep you on top, its balance and hip control. Being on the bottom of a mount is one of the worst positions to be in.

 

[K-man]

You didn't answer the question.....

Interestingly, we have the exact same philosophy in Bjj. The difference of course being that Bjj provides an outlet for those who prefer sport/competition, as well as an outlet for those who prefer the self defense aspect of the art. I'm more curious about traditional Karate clearly being developed for downing larger opponents, yet somehow the "rules" of competition nullifies that ability in some fashion. How does that happen exactly? I mean, there's certainly techniques in Bjj that you couldn't use in a competition, so we just don't use them in competition. However, those rules don't really nullify the underlining effectiveness of our art. So I'm wondering why such rules do that to traditional arts.

I did answer your question, just not in the words you tried to put in my mouth.

For me 'traditional karate' is what I practise and rules of competition don't nullify anything. My style of karate does not compete in competition. If I wanted to compete in a competition I would train in a style that develops skills to compete in competition. My original style of Goju Kai did that, but even then it was to compete against others under a particular set of rules. Once the rules are changed, as in MMA, you have to change you training to allow for those rule changes.

Then your last point ... traditional arts. I don't believe you can have this debate without specifically defining what art you are referring to as traditional. 'Traditional' is too broad a term to answer your question.
:asian:

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Biting during an armbar is a great way to get your arm snapped.



Keep in mind, when someone is grappling with you, you're going to be the one on the ground getting your back burned over the hot lava rocks you're fighting on. A superior grappler is not going to let you get a dominant position.

Also, its not the confined space and walls that help keep you on top, its balance and hip control. Being on the bottom of a mount is one of the worst positions to be in.

It helps to a degree, how much I don't know, but I've seen people use the walls to stay on top in MMA. Or to look at it another way, guys who may have escaped the mount if it weren't for the walls.

What if I go for the bite before you get the arm bar locked in? Or as soon as you come anywhere near me?

The point was though that No Holds Barred means anything goes when, as far as I'm aware, it doesn't really. However I presume now the NHB you were referring to is a brand or something rather than a literal description.

 

[Blindside]

It helps to a degree, how much I don't know, but I've seen people use the walls to stay on top in MMA. Or to look at it another way, guys who may have escaped the mount if it weren't for the walls.

What if I go for the bite before you get the arm bar locked in? Or as soon as you come anywhere near me?

The point was though that No Holds Barred means anything goes when, as far as I'm aware, it doesn't really. However I presume now the NHB you were referring to is a brand or something rather than a literal description.

Unless you get pinned in a broad open field, there are probably just as many walls, trees, and furniture around that are at least equivalent to the distance across the cage. My living room is about 20 feet wide, not including furniture, bookcases etc. The octagon is 30 feet across, so I don't think using that as an objection is realistic.

As for the "what if I bite" can always be countered by "what if I pound your head flat." Yes biting is an option, but it isn't a magical trick, and it really isn't all that useful when in bad positions.

 

[Hanzou]

It helps to a degree, how much I don't know, but I've seen people use the walls to stay on top in MMA. Or to look at it another way, guys who may have escaped the mount if it weren't for the walls.

That would be two skilled grapplers who know how to escape such positions. As shown numerous times, if you don't know what you're doing when someone is on top of you, its very difficult to shake them off of you.

What if I go for the bite before you get the arm bar locked in? Or as soon as you come anywhere near me?

I'm afraid that's a great way to lose your teeth.

Wouldn't it just be easier to learn how to escape such positions?

The point was though that No Holds Barred means anything goes when, as far as I'm aware, it doesn't really. However I presume now the NHB you were referring to is a brand or something rather than a literal description.

That would be Vale Tudo. The same styles that dominated that also currently dominate MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

For me 'traditional karate' is what I practise and rules of competition don't nullify anything. My style of karate does not compete in competition. If I wanted to compete in a competition I would train in a style that develops skills to compete in competition. My original style of Goju Kai did that, but even then it was to compete against others under a particular set of rules. Once the rules are changed, as in MMA, you have to change you training to allow for those rule changes.

Okay, so what if someone wants to use Goju for MMA, why can't they use it? What rules prevent Goju from being fully effective in NHB competition?

 

[Blindside]

Interestingly, we have the exact same philosophy in Bjj. The difference of course being that Bjj provides an outlet for those who prefer sport/competition, as well as an outlet for those who prefer the self defense aspect of the art. I'm more curious about traditional Karate clearly being developed for downing larger opponents, yet somehow the "rules" of competition nullifies that ability in some fashion. How does that happen exactly? I mean, there's certainly techniques in Bjj that you couldn't use in a competition, so we just don't use them in competition. However, those rules don't really nullify the underlining effectiveness of our art. So I'm wondering why such rules do that to traditional arts.

I understand where many of these arguments are coming from. In the kali system that I study the first defense against the grappler is to be standing there with a knife in hand, go ahead and try your single leg/double leg/whatever..... So yes that is the "we train with weapons" argument, I get it. The assumptions of a martial art will drive its technique, because PTK pretty much assumes the other guy has a knife, we don't spend much time on lower level shoots, almost all of our takedowns involve getting (weapon) limb control first. The bad consequence is that we don't spend much time on perfecting lower line takedowns so we can develop a hole in the curriculum where we are basically either not practicing against it at all or when we do it is generally against a relatively unskilled attacker. The system does have unarmed lower level takedown defenses which are pretty much the equivalent of a sprawl, crossface, and a single underhook, but they require some exploration to uncover and are often not part of the explicit curriculum. Incidentally, all of those defenses work better when done with a knife in hand.

 

[Flying Crane]

I personally believe that those styles are absent from NHB competitions because they're no longer truly designed for actual fighting, but for cultural preservation. Much like dance, and other performing arts. I'd like to be shown otherwise, but the reasoning I'm getting out of this thread isn't really swaying that belief. I mean the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

well, I think you don't know much about these systems and I'll suggest you might not want to make open statements about things you don't know....

For example, there's a fantastic style in Brazil called Capoeira. Very lovely movements, cool looking kicks and body movements, great evasion techniques, etc. However, even the masters of the style will tell you that its not for fighting, they'll happily admit that its more about dance, music, exercise, and learning about Afro-Brazilian culture.

Hmmm... I'd be curious to know with whom you've been speaking. I was an enthusiastic capoeirista for a number of years when I was younger, reached the level of "graduated student" in my training group, roughly equivalent to what a shodan would be in another system. The people I know, know how to fight and are very good at it. Fighting capoeira is definitely different from playing capoeira, that much is true. But for those who know how (and no, not everyone falls into this category), it is a very effective fighting method.

once again, you ought to be careful making comments on things about which you don't know much.

This admission occurred because Capoeira stylists got their butts kicked in Vale Tudo and other major competitions throughout Brazil. Despite this though, Capoeira is slowly growing in popularity because its a great exercise and dance routine.

capoeira got ITS butt kicked? How exactly does that work? I'm guessing that maybe some guy, who is a capoeirista, didn't do well in the competition. But that doesn't mean the WHOLE SYSTEM got its butt kicked. and again, so what? seriously. You seem to have this notion that MMA competition is THE yardstick against which all martial arts must be measured. You are wrong about that. It isn't.