Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Flying Crane]

Okay, so what if someone wants to use Goju for MMA, why can't they use it? What rules prevent Goju from being fully effective in NHB competition?

You seem to be taking this as a given. I'm not convinced that it is.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Capoeirista's certainly have not been ineffective in mma:

 

[drop bear]

Capoeirista's certainly have not been ineffective in mma:

Capoeira has a history of vale tudo though. Cos Brazil or something. The smashiest akido I have seen came out of Brazil as well.

Capo Roda of insane death.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgHTJ760GBQ&has_verified=1&client=mv-google&layout=tablet

Actual alive akido.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4mGjDjsCWGY

 

[Blindside]

capoeira got ITS butt kicked? How exactly does that work? I'm guessing that maybe some guy, who is a capoeirista, didn't do well in the competition. But that doesn't mean the WHOLE SYSTEM got its butt kicked. and again, so what? seriously. You seem to have this notion that MMA competition is THE yardstick against which all martial arts must be measured. You are wrong about that. It isn't.

Question: How does a system get a rep for being good at fighting?
Answer: It fought.

Somehow, somewhere it made a name for itself, practitioners went out and kicked ***. Systems whose instructors kept getting their asses kicked are unlikely to have down lineage students. (Which incidentally is why we are getting a proliferation of mcdojos, a little socially accepted dojo storming and those would go away real quick.) If your art is a historical battlefield art with little application to modern day self-defense, then fine, it is now an anachronism, enjoy your studies. But if your art claims to make you a competent unarmed fighter, then the test is fighting. Certainly not every practitioner has to fight, but to maintain that rep there has to be some element of interaction against other skilled fighters. Actually, that isn't true, if your system is designed to essentially defend against unskilled attackers then pressure testing against skilled opponents is unnecessary (see kenpo....) But that makes for bad advertising; "we totally kick *** against unskilled adversaries." But if you claim to have a fighting art designed to defend against other skilled fighters, your system or some representatives of that system better go out and promote the brand. Right now that arena is MMA or kickboxing or submission grappling, heck the options for weapon tournaments are opening up these days, have you seen those HEMA guys? At some point living off the rep of some long dead founder doesn't count anymore.

 

[drop bear]

Capoeira in Rio hero's.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_VsfoEy8vU

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Capoeira in Rio hero's.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_VsfoEy8vU

That is a beautiful head butt knockout! To bad head butt are illegal in the mma unified rules. I have always enjoyed watching them utilized effectively!

 

[drop bear]

That is a beautiful head butt knockout! To bad head butt are illegal in the mma unified rules. I have always enjoyed watching them utilized effectively!

Not to bad if you are doing it.

 

[Hanzou]

You seem to be taking this as a given. I'm not convinced that it is.

Why would you assume that? I'm merely asking a question. The question stems from the notion from a few posters here that their art becomes decidedly less effective in an arena or a ring. If you study Kendo, I can understand that argument. However, if you're studying an unarmed form of MA, the general NHB rules shouldn't hinder your style completely.

Of course, I'm willing to accept being wrong about that, which is why I'm asking the question.

 

[qianfeng]

I think Muay Thai, kickboxing and boxing have an advantage because they have been doing these full contact competitions for a long time compared to say kung fu.
This developes an advantage as they will focus on techniques that work best in these situationes compared to many different techniques of various ones.

 

[qianfeng]

well some forms can help you develope fajin which is useful.

 

[qianfeng]

Not all TMA have form. My Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) system is a TMA but it has no form. The Yi Chuan system also has no form. The Judo system also has no form.

I was a striker before I was a grappler. After I have trained as a grappler, my opinion about form has changed big time. My current interest is the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game. I don't have time to worry about form any more. I'm a TMA guy outside, but I'm a MMA guy inside (I'm 100% in favor of "cross training").

I was wondering which striking style did u do before shuai jiao and do you still practice it?

 

[qianfeng]

Yep. My point though is that we don't really train to spar. There are some WC guys out there who can hold their own in a sparring context, but only because they've trained with that purpose in mind.

In the same way I might have some trouble in a sparring context, I think you would find a chisau context equally challenging and unfamiliar.

On the other hand, I'm confident, despite not having much sparring practice, my training would serve me if I ever needed it in a confrontation. Or, heck, if I put it to its traditional use and entered a 1950's challenge match.

i think you'll find that having not sparred what will happen is the same as some masters in 1950s who also thought that but when sparring they did this wu vs chan 1954 (taichi versus white crane) - YouTube

 

[qianfeng]

Okay, but to use your example, there IS grappling in many Karate and Kung Fu styles. Why would a Choy Li Fut or Prayin Mantis practitioner for example need to go learn Bjj or Wrestling when their art has grappling and joint locks within the system already?



Okay, but then comes the other question; Why are we not seeing anyone enter the UFC or Bellator, and break out in Kung Fu or Karate hand techniques, footwork, or stances?



Well to be fair, Bjj has all of those qualities you mentioned above, yet is still a major style in MMA competition. So even that explanation doesn't really work.

Kung fu almost all standup locks and throws and if u look and chinese wreslting thats standup too so yeah need something else if u want to join mma

 

[qianfeng]

the first one is a du li bu and the lifting foot is like a leg check....

and for preying mantis you dont need to hold out ur hand like that when fighting....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I was wondering which striking style did u do before shuai jiao and do you still practice it?

The long fist system (from Master Li, Mao-Ching) is my major striking art. That's where all my foundation was developed from.

http://ymaa.com/articles/grandmaster-li-mao-ching

My minor are praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, Win Chun, white ape, Lohan, Taiji, XingYi. I still practice those styles but I only take what I need from those styles and I don't train those forms any more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

well some forms can help you develope fajin which is useful.

Here is my argument. After you have learned your forms, you don't need to keep training your forms to develop Fajin. You can tear that form apart, dig out your drills, and train those drills in any order that you may like to.

The Baji system uses different solo drill to develop different Fajin. Of course all the drills may come from the form. But if you are interested in Fajin, you don't have to train form and follow the order in that form. You can develop any Fajin in any order. The form has many moves but there are only 8 Fajin drills that may come out of all the Baji forms. If you just train those 8 drills, you don't need to learn the original 3 Baji forms. This is so nice about the Baji system. If you put time to train those 8 drills, you will develop your Fajin. You don't have to spend 3 years in form training to achieve that.

IMO, there are 3 options here, I prefer the 2nd method myself. Today, even I no longer train those Baji forms, I still train those Baji drills.

1. Learn the form, train the form for the rest of your life.
2. Learn the form, tear that form apart, dig out your drills, forget about your form, and train your drills for the rest of your life.
3. Don't learn the form, just learn the drills, and train those drills for the rest of your life.

Here is one of the 8 drills that anybody can use it to develop "cross Jin". If one just repeats this solo drill 100 times daily, he will develop a Baji body method (compress and release) without using the original Baji form.

 

[qianfeng]

i see your point and it is a lot better than my haha!

Drills in my opinion better than forms for training but i was jut saying forms do provide some help. I do quite a bit of Ma bu gong chui (horse stance to bow stance punch) for fajin.

And is that adam hsu? the taiwanese baji seems quite a bit different to my and the again every lineage looks different but the power generation is the same.

 

[Buka]

I love MMA. I've been watching for twenty years, have trained in it and was a judge In Massachusetts for five years. Some of the kids I judged years ago are in the UFC now. And I use the UFC as an example since we all know it and can watch it just by turning on our tvs. There is not one fighter in the UFC, not one, who has not trained specifically for MMA. Not one wrestler, not one BJJ guy, not one Muay Thai guy etc. You couldn't even get to the UFC level without training in a cage, and specifically train in MMA, no matter what your favorite, or original style. And it has nothing to do with how your style translates in self defense terms. All UFC fighters, all of them, train specifically for MMA. All UFC wannabes do too. All of them.

 

[Reedone816]

^^ all current ufc fighter learn mma, but for those who learn other than muay thai- bjj - wrestling, has comes with uniques moves that has not been used before they used it.
From one mma podcast, duke said that mma is a copy-paste sport, once they learn it works, everyone train it.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

 

[Hanzou]

^^ all current ufc fighter learn mma, but for those who learn other than muay thai- bjj - wrestling, has comes with uniques moves that has not been used before they used it.
From one mma podcast, duke said that mma is a copy-paste sport, once they learn it works, everyone train it.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

Exactly. No-gi Judo for example is now being incorporated into MMA curriculums because Rhonda Rousey is dominating with it. Before that, people figured that Judo throws were unpractical, and felt that wrestling offered better general takedowns. Now you have Rousey tossing people with Judo throws, and no one can counter them.

If someone started dominating with Wing Chun, Ninjutsu, or Aikido, the exact same thing would happen. However, its doubtful that would happen due to the training methods of those styles.