What is wrong with wing chun

[drop bear]

It's interesting that wing chun has a staff form at all.
Is there a reason why one could not reinterpret the movements as empty hand techniques for use at range?

Different weapon. Different delivery system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Like I said before, if someone doesn't believe me, perhaps I can demonstrate to them then they can decide if I have credibility or not. But we both know no one's gonna pay for the airfare.

So, your ability to kick someone's butt stands in stead for your knowledge of WC?

 

[Martial D]

You know, I was sparring with a couple guys today and in the midst of it all it occurred to me what exactly the problem is with wc.

Being on the centerline(ie upright and available) is the absolute worst place to be. You always want your head moving one way or the other if you don't like the taste of leather(or knuckle). WC does everything from the last place I want to be.

 

[Danny T]

You know, I was sparring with a couple guys today and in the midst of it all it occurred to me what exactly the problem is with wc.

Being on the centerline(ie upright and available) is the absolute worst place to be. You always want your head moving one way or the other if you don't like the taste of leather(or knuckle). WC does everything from the last place I want to be.

Being on your opponent's centerline is not where you want to be. Try being on an angle instead. Using good shifting footwork will give you the angle. Don't enter on the opponent's centerline.

 

[drop bear]

Being on your opponent's centerline is not where you want to be. Try being on an angle instead. Using good shifting footwork will give you the angle. Don't enter on the opponent's centerline.View attachment 20895

Yeah but you are still there punch for punch. You shoot your punch from your center line. If I shoot mine from off my centerline. Your punch hits air.

You can still angle off and not sit there and get nailed. But you will loose that exchange.

One does not just walk off center. You have to fix them to a position first then walk off center. That first excange breaks your ability to angle off.

Lomenchenko is still the best example of these wing chun ideas finnessed into exeptional boxing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Perhaps you are interpreting things too literally.
IME, rapid footwork is in the weapons forms.

IMO, to wait until the weapon form to train "rapid footwork" may be too late.

 

[wckf92]

IMO, to wait until the weapon form to train "rapid footwork" may be too late.

I agree. But, didn't say one has to wait...just said it's in there.

 

[drop bear]

I agree. But, didn't say one has to wait...just said it's in there.

I don't know if you can be physically as mobile if you are flat footed. So regardless of the foot work. They will be a beat behind there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know if you can be physically as mobile if you are flat footed. So regardless of the foot work. They will be a beat behind there.

IMO, mobility is a "habit" that should be built up during the early training stage. Some MA systems do treat "mobility" very seriously.

 

[Knapf]

So why say it?

Anyone can question another art, but you didn't question it, you argued you knew it better than those who study it.

I do

The fact you don't know wing chun invalidates your opinion about what it contains or how you would use the art in a given situation.

I am very familliar with their strategies

The fact that you then tried to argue your view invalidates the benefit of the doubt most people would be inclined to give you.

Arguing is just part of discussing

I posted some on topic stuff but the discussion breezed past it.
Hopefully we'll return to topic soon.

If you don't like what I say perhaps you can complain to the mods? Or make a police report?

 

[Knapf]

So, your ability to kick someone's butt stands in stead for your knowledge of WC?

Well,if I know their weaknesses........

 

[Martial D]

Being on your opponent's centerline is not where you want to be. Try being on an angle instead. Using good shifting footwork will give you the angle. Don't enter on the opponent's centerline.View attachment 20895

Well, yes, but that's not what I meant. It's not the center line that's the problem, but the mother line. I understand gate theory and flanking, but the WC biomechanics leave the head upright and imoble to work, and this is a serious flaw.

 

[Phobius]

Well, yes, but that's not what I meant. It's not the center line that's the problem, but the mother line. I understand gate theory and flanking, but the WC biomechanics leave the head upright and imoble to work, and this is a serious flaw.

A stick when straight does not have to point straight to the sky. Bend your knees and head will follow.

I have been taught that head moves out of the way. Optimally by changing position but it never remains where the punch will be unless there is no other way.

Also I think withholding rapid footwork as you say from intermediate practitioners is wrong.

Weapons form we introduce early on, of course beginners have hard time reading them but they will benefit from moving the legs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well,if I know their weaknesses........

That still doesn't mean you know their curriculum. It doesn't even necessarily mean anything about their system. If two equally adaptable and usable systems are deployed, the better fighter generally wins. The loser's system isn't suddenly flawed because of that.

 

[Martial D]

A stick when straight does not have to point straight to the sky. Bend your knees and head will follow.

Which leaves you a little higher or lower, but there is only so much range of motion to a straight, upright spine. Still right there to be hit.

I have been taught that head moves out of the way. Optimally by changing position but it never remains where the punch will be unless there is no other way.

And without bobbing, slipping,and weaving doing that becomes easier said than done. Sure. You have shifting to the left or right. But if your opponent can box well you better have fast hands for all dem 'sau' techniques.

Also I think withholding rapid footwork as you say from intermediate practitioners is wrong.

It wasn't withheld from me, I can move around pretty fast in a WC stance. Still not as fast as I can with dynamic footwork however. You can only do so much with all of your weight planted on the back foot and the spine held completely upright. So you sacrifice mobility (head and feet) for biomechanics, or biomechanics for mobility. Ne'er the two shall meet.

 

[Knapf]

If two equally adaptable and usable systems are deployed, the better fighter generally wins.

But they are not equal.

The loser's system isn't suddenly flawed because of that.

Like you said before,you don't know Wing Chun.

Anyway, you come from one of the two systems that gets criticized on that other forum. So it's not surprising you would come to this sort of thinking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But they are not equal.

Irrelevant to the example. Your ability to beat someone in a fight doesn't do anything to illustrate that you know their system. It shows, at best, that you know how to fight the weaknesses in that system, not that you know the techniques contained therein.

Like you said before,you don't know Wing Chun.

Like you said before, you don't know the WC curriculum.

Anyway, you come from one of the two systems that gets criticized on that other forum. So it's not surprising you would come to this sort of thinking.

That's not a valid argument, given that you don't seem to know what NGA is. And you may note that I have not defended anything about WC. I've only pointed out the logical issues with your argument.

EDIT: I should also point out that's an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with my statements.

 

[Knapf]

Irrelevant to the example. Your ability to beat someone in a fight doesn't do anything to illustrate that you know their system. It shows, at best, that you know how to fight the weaknesses in that system, not that you know the techniques contained therein.


Like you said before, you don't know the WC curriculum.


That's not a valid argument, given that you don't seem to know what NGA is. And you may note that I have not defended anything about WC. I've only pointed out the logical issues with your argument.

EDIT: I should also point out that's an ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with my statements.

That has all to do with it .Someone from a questionable system would think the same way as you. I would love to discuss this further but I would have gotten reported twice already. Bye then.

 

[DanT]

Even if you do have sow chui and charp chui,it isn't enough.
You may need the tiger claw to have a larger arsenal even if it is not "in nature" with the art. Bak Mei and Hung Ga use all the 5 animals instead of focusing on just 2. Yes, they both have 2 major animals but they still utilize everything. Feel free to disagree. WC guys might not even need to learn all the 5 animals of other arts but hopefully they can supplement with something else

Honestly, Wing Chun's striking aresenal contains enough weapons to deal with all incoming angles of attacks, and delivers attacks along all angles once you learn all the techniques. You mentioned before about people ducking under a straight punch. Wing Chun has uppercuts (just like MT), and Gum Sao (pressing down hand) which could be used to hit the back of the head), as well as a knee to the face. Perhaps we should stop disliking each others posts and just start talking openly. I like Choi Lee Fut, and if I had the time I would learn it (I study 6 different systems). What other situations do you feel that Wing Chun could not counter against? I will give you an open answer.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Well, yes, but that's not what I meant. It's not the center line that's the problem, but the mother line. I understand gate theory and flanking, but the WC biomechanics leave the head upright and imoble to work, and this is a serious flaw.

So a western boxer or kickboxer dropping their chin a bit (in comparison to more upright head in a WC stance) somehow makes it more mobile? Its really the body movement that makes the difference, not how upright the head alone is. I think the uber stiff, upright, and narrow stance WC fighter people readily think of is more common at very low student grades and experience, not truly representative of the art. I've touched hands with biu jee level students that had excellent head / body movement and used springy WT footwork without being rigid.
It will always be different than western boxing "bob and weave" type tactics, for sure. WC is not designed to dance around and trade punches with someone (no disrespect to boxing). WC is designed to leak in and smother an attacker.