What is wrong with wing chun

[Gerry Seymour]

That has all to do with it .Someone from a questionable system would think the same way as you. I would love to discuss this further but I would have gotten reported twice already. Bye then.

So, it takes someone from what you claim without knowledge to be a "questionable system" to believe that you cannot claim to know all that's in a curriculum you didn't finish?

And upon what basis are you referring to NGA as a "questionable system"?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That has all to do with it .Someone from a questionable system would think the same way as you. I would love to discuss this further but I would have gotten reported twice already. Bye then.

You seem absorbed with being reported. I'm not sure what that's about - doesn't happen all that often here on MT.

 

[Martial D]

So a western boxer or kickboxer dropping their chin a bit (in comparison to more upright head in a WC stance) somehow makes it more mobile? Its really the body movement that makes the difference, not how upright the head alone is. I think the uber stiff, upright, and narrow stance WC fighter people readily think of is more common at very low student grades and experience, not truly representative of the art. I've touched hands with biu jee level students that had excellent head / body movement and used springy WT footwork without being rigid.
It will always be different than western boxing "bob and weave" type tactics, for sure. WC is not designed to dance around and trade punches with someone (no disrespect to boxing). WC is designed to leak in and smother an attacker.

In order for WC power generation to 'work', the spine must be upright and the shoulders down and loose. If you are going to angle your body and raise your shoulders your WC movements will be gimped.

 

[DaveB]

Different weapon. Different delivery system.

That's the point though.

TMA works off the idea behind the form rather than just the form.

The pole form teaches an entirely different (to my eyes) stance and movement specifically for longer range combat. So move like that without the pole.

Where you would thrust the staff thrust a fist and practice transitioning between this ranged approach and the close footwork/posture.

Are there any 2-man staff sets? Most weapons can be reinterpreted as hand techniques as it's just about the direction of the energy in use.

 

[DaveB]

In order for WC power generation to 'work', the spine must be upright and the shoulders down and loose. If you are going to angle your body and raise your shoulders your WC movements will be gimped.

Do any of the wing chun beat down clips show this weakness being exploited?

 

[Martial D]

Do any of the wing chun beat down clips show this weakness being exploited?

I would say yes. It's generally a WC guy leaping in square and straight to do... assumedly WC stuff, and getting caught on the way in like a big undefended target. I do think JKD solved this problem though.

 

[drop bear]

That's the point though.

TMA works off the idea behind the form rather than just the form.

The pole form teaches an entirely different (to my eyes) stance and movement specifically for longer range combat. So move like that without the pole.

Where you would thrust the staff thrust a fist and practice transitioning between this ranged approach and the close footwork/posture.

Are there any 2-man staff sets? Most weapons can be reinterpreted as hand techniques as it's just about the direction of the energy in use.

Yeah. But with that sideways stance you cant access your rear hand. And you give up your blind side.

All not an issue with a ten foot piece of wood sticking out in front of you.

They just need to make the unarmed footwork more dynamic. Get up on that back toe. And pop into the lower stance just before they strike.

Considering they are generating pretty much all their power from moving into position. It will only increase their ability to fight.

 

[drop bear]

Do any of the wing chun beat down clips show this weakness being exploited?

His head is basically on a stalk. It is a crap way to eat punches. People don't get that when punches are coming at you they are really hard to counter. This is why everyone who faces hard punches pretty much has a cover system.

Yiu use the wing chun concept of trapping when you are comfortable with what they are throwing.

Otherwise it is chin down hands tight.

 

[drop bear]

That still doesn't mean you know their curriculum. It doesn't even necessarily mean anything about their system. If two equally adaptable and usable systems are deployed, the better fighter generally wins. The loser's system isn't suddenly flawed because of that.

Better fighters create better systems. The loosers system is flawed from loosing fights.

This is why you go to better fighters to gain knowledge

 

[wingchun100]

BTW, re the Randy Williams clip above: As a friend of mine commented upon viewing this, "Only a Butt-Head would start throwing Head-Butts in a supposedly friendly chi-sau exchange like that!"

My first Sifu met him at a seminar in the midwest somewhere, many moons ago in the mid-90's...said they nearly got into a "chi sao fight."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

His head is basically on a stalk. It is a crap way to eat punches. People don't get that when punches are coming at you they are really hard to counter. This is why everyone who faces hard punches pretty much has a cover system.

Yiu use the wing chun concept of trapping when you are comfortable with what they are throwing.

Otherwise it is chin down hands tight.

IMO, this is one of the areas where TMA end up not "looking like" themselves when facing a different style. In many TMA (including the one I train in), much of the focus is on the period when you are delivering technique, and you can afford different structure in those moments, if you are in complete control. The rest of the time, you need to be able to cover, as you say. I've been working on getting more "cover" into the control areas, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Better fighters create better systems. The loosers system is flawed from loosing fights.

This is why you go to better fighters to gain knowledge

Not from a single fight, it isn't. The point is that being able to beat one guy doesn't necessarily prove anything about a system. If I beat a Muay Thai guy, I'd assume there was a disparity of skill, because it would be more than difficult to argue that I won because of major weaknesses in his system.

 

[drop bear]

Not from a single fight, it isn't. The point is that being able to beat one guy doesn't necessarily prove anything about a system. If I beat a Muay Thai guy, I'd assume there was a disparity of skill, because it would be more than difficult to argue that I won because of major weaknesses in his system.

Remember MMA guy vs Aikido guy?

I don't think it takes thousands of fights to see the holes in a persons game.

 

[drop bear]

IMO, this is one of the areas where TMA end up not "looking like" themselves when facing a different style. In many TMA (including the one I train in), much of the focus is on the period when you are delivering technique, and you can afford different structure in those moments, if you are in complete control. The rest of the time, you need to be able to cover, as you say. I've been working on getting more "cover" into the control areas, too.

It is more than that. But I get your point.

You need to create the circumstances for your style to work.

Even solid grapplers don't just walk up to you and take you down. They create an opportunity where the takedown is viable. And to do that is generally everything but grappling.

I learned the value of using control from a place of safety from security. It is sorely underrated.

 

[Danny T]

His head is basically on a stalk. It is a crap way to eat punches. People don't get that when punches are coming at you they are really hard to counter. This is why everyone who faces hard punches pretty much has a cover system.

Yiu use the wing chun concept of trapping when you are comfortable with what they are throwing.

Otherwise it is chin down hands tight.

Yeah...this shows what happens (and it happens a lot) when one is under trained and/or has trained only vs other wing chun type practitioners. The poor fellow didn't understand so didn't know how to handle the other's tactics. Great example of why we train and spar vs boxers, nak muays, wrestlers, bjjers, other martial art practitioners, and not just wing chunners.

You don't learn to fight practicing drills and forms, you learn to fight by pressure testing with fighting actions and sparring. Having the ability to control range, angles, timing, power, attacking lines, defending, counter-attacking in a fight happens by sparring...vs a lot of different type of fighters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Remember MMA guy vs Aikido guy?

I don't think it takes thousands of fights to see the holes in a persons game.

True enough, but the MMA guy probably doesn't claim he knows better than someone training Aikido what techniques aren't in the Aikido curriculum, which is a claim that was made in this thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is more than that. But I get your point.

You need to create the circumstances for your style to work.

Even solid grapplers don't just walk up to you and take you down. They create an opportunity where the takedown is viable. And to do that is generally everything but grappling.

I learned the value of using control from a place of safety from security. It is sorely underrated.

I agree with you on that. And this is something that is sometimes missed in some TMA training. If the focus is too much on the technique, to the exclusion of understanding how to get to it (or recognize the opportunity to get to it), then you have a very good technique you might never be able to pull off. And, of course, you need solid tactics for what you do when opportunities for your techniques aren't showing up (for a Judoka who is being hit, rather than grabbed, for instance, or an Aikidoka who isn't getting the commitment of weight).

 

[drop bear]

I agree with you on that. And this is something that is sometimes missed in some TMA training. If the focus is too much on the technique, to the exclusion of understanding how to get to it (or recognize the opportunity to get to it), then you have a very good technique you might never be able to pull off. And, of course, you need solid tactics for what you do when opportunities for your techniques aren't showing up (for a Judoka who is being hit, rather than grabbed, for instance, or an Aikidoka who isn't getting the commitment of weight).

Yeah. I think I will be using this meme a bit to explain it.

 

[PiedmontChun]

His head is basically on a stalk. It is a crap way to eat punches. People don't get that when punches are coming at you they are really hard to counter. This is why everyone who faces hard punches pretty much has a cover system.

Yiu use the wing chun concept of trapping when you are comfortable with what they are throwing.

Otherwise it is chin down hands tight.

This fight didn't seem to be an issue of how he was holding his head. It seemed more a case of trying to go right up the middle against a kicker and fast striker that had actual footwork. My very first few classes of WT we were taught to move in fast, and also angle offline if trying to "catch" a kick, otherwise you're just eating the kick and the grab becomes pointless. Its risky, so you either smother the range of the strike or you get out of the way. WC doesn't make you invincible where you should just walk right up the middle, even if striking along the center is desirable. A lot of WC training assumes you are being attacked by a committed assailant too, not a competitive fight where someone is timing their entry to outmaneuver you. Different tactics.

But bottom line, in my opinion - you can be a lot more mobile than the guy in this video without abandoning WC footwork or the essence of the stance / guard.

 

[Danny T]

But bottom line, in my opinion - you can be a lot more mobile than the guy in this video without abandoning WC footwork or the essence of the stance / guard.

Or, one can be naturally mobile. Using whatever footwork is needed 'when' it is need. Stances are fleeting; they are but snapshots in time. Move naturally. Settle into your required footwork or stance when needed.