What is wrong with wing chun

[DaveB]

I agree with you on that. And this is something that is sometimes missed in some TMA training. If the focus is too much on the technique, to the exclusion of understanding how to get to it (or recognize the opportunity to get to it), then you have a very good technique you might never be able to pull off. And, of course, you need solid tactics for what you do when opportunities for your techniques aren't showing up (for a Judoka who is being hit, rather than grabbed, for instance, or an Aikidoka who isn't getting the commitment of weight).

All of which takes us back to my thread on strategy that I can never drum up much interest in.

 

[DaveB]

This fight didn't seem to be an issue of how he was holding his head. It seemed more a case of trying to go right up the middle against a kicker and fast striker that had actual footwork. My very first few classes of WT we were taught to move in fast, and also angle offline if trying to "catch" a kick, otherwise you're just eating the kick and the grab becomes pointless. Its risky, so you either smother the range of the strike or you get out of the way. WC doesn't make you invincible where you should just walk right up the middle, even if striking along the center is desirable. A lot of WC training assumes you are being attacked by a committed assailant too, not a competitive fight where someone is timing their entry to outmaneuver you. Different tactics.

But bottom line, in my opinion - you can be a lot more mobile than the guy in this video without abandoning WC footwork or the essence of the stance / guard.

Which sits as testament to the point that training makes the fighter not the style.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which sits as testament to the point that training makes the fighter not the style.

The style matters (has to use effective technique and tactics), but the training methods and the person in the fight matter more. There's some overlap between training and style, though. How you train is part of delivering tactics and even strategy, so changing the training methods can alter the way the style operates. If boxing were trained entirely on a heavy bag, it would quickly lose the footwork and head movement that are part of the style. Is it still boxing then, or is it something derived from boxing? That's a question whose answer depends how we define the style. The same would be true of WC. If a different kind of movement training were incorporated (that didn't mess up the mechanics of power delivery, etc.), WC might look quite different - is that still WC? If forms weren't used to train the movements, but they were trained to the same end, is that still WC (I saw at least one person state recently it's not WC without the forms)?

 

[drop bear]

All of which takes us back to my thread on strategy that I can never drum up much interest in.

Because nobody does it. You should see my thread on deescalation. Nobody has a system for it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, to wait until the weapon form to train "rapid footwork" may be too late.

This is the "rapid footwork" that I'm talking about.

 

[DaveB]

The style matters (has to use effective technique and tactics), but the training methods and the person in the fight matter more. There's some overlap between training and style, though. How you train is part of delivering tactics and even strategy, so changing the training methods can alter the way the style operates. If boxing were trained entirely on a heavy bag, it would quickly lose the footwork and head movement that are part of the style. Is it still boxing then, or is it something derived from boxing? That's a question whose answer depends how we define the style. The same would be true of WC. If a different kind of movement training were incorporated (that didn't mess up the mechanics of power delivery, etc.), WC might look quite different - is that still WC? If forms weren't used to train the movements, but they were trained to the same end, is that still WC (I saw at least one person state recently it's not WC without the forms)?

That person didn't understand forms. Of course it's still chun without forms. FIGHTING style not training style. How you fight makes the difference.
This is IMO one of TMA's biggest problems. People get good at doing their art, ie going to class and performing forms and drills and exercises and forget that those things are the means to an end not the end it's self.

If the principles used are the same the style is the same.
As I've said before, if small variations changed a style there wouldn't be so many brands of wing chun to argue with each other. But they all stick to mostly the same principles of mechanics and tactics and strategy. Hence they are all wing chun.

 

[drop bear]

That person didn't understand forms. Of course it's still chun without forms. FIGHTING style not training style. How you fight makes the difference.
This is IMO one of TMA's biggest problems. People get good at doing their art, ie going to class and performing forms and drills and exercises and forget that those things are the means to an end not the end it's self.

If the principles used are the same the style is the same.
As I've said before, if small variations changed a style there wouldn't be so many brands of wing chun to argue with each other. But they all stick to mostly the same principles of mechanics and tactics and strategy. Hence they are all wing chun.

 

[DaveB]

Because nobody does it. You should see my thread on deescalation. Nobody has a system for it.

I think the systems are there but people pay lip service to it rather than make it a living breathing part of their art.

When you only train against your own the need to branch outside of core strategy can seem quite urgent because you have to get around what "everyone" is doing.
But then outside of your style everything is a seeing contest. Do you know how often Okinawan karate stylists felt the need to expound on Shotokan's lack of circular pmovement and it's use of force against force.

So naturally people want their style to be "gapless" which means mastering every obscure movement variation rather than actually deeply specialising in the strengths of the style.

 

[DaveB]

This is the "rapid footwork" that I'm talking about.

I doubt he ever actually trained that.
Run and punch tends to happen quite naturally.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the systems are there but people pay lip service to it rather than make it a living breathing part of their art.

When you only train against your own the need to branch outside of core strategy can seem quite urgent because you have to get around what "everyone" is doing.
But then outside of your style everything is a seeing contest. Do you know how often Okinawan karate stylists felt the need to expound on Shotokan's lack of circular pmovement and it's use of force against force.

So naturally people want their style to be "gapless" which means mastering every obscure movement variation rather than actually deeply specialising in the strengths of the style.

The issue with deescalation is that it cannot be trained with any "aliveness". You can role play a bit, but you never actually get to work with any level of real resistance in class. So, most of us teach a few bits on it here and there, at most. Folks like DB and Juany have occupations that give them a chance to practice those techniques, and most of us get a chance a few times a year to use them, but that's about it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I doubt he ever actually trained that.
Run and punch tends to happen quite naturally.

I don't know about him, but there is a training called "running punch".

You start with

1. 1 step 3 punches,
2. 1 step 2 punches,
3. 1 step 1 punch,
4. 2 steps 1 punch,
5. 3 step 1 punch.

Since you will need to coordinate your breathing with your punches, it does require training.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know about him, but there is a training called "running punch".

You start with

1. 1 step 3 punches,
2. 1 step 2 punches,
3. 1 step 1 punch,
4. 2 steps 1 punch,
5. 3 step 1 punch.

Since you will need to coordinate your breathing with your punches, it does require training.

Yup, but I don't worry so much about coordinating the breathing. What is more important is the biomechanics to use that body rotation on each step, to drive the next punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yup, but I don't worry so much about coordinating the breathing. What is more important is the biomechanics to use that body rotation on each step, to drive the next punch.

The body rotation is important. IMO, the more that you can pull your punch back, the harder that your punch can be.

There is a "sections breathing" training that you

- inhale fully, exhale fully.
- inhale 1/2, inhale another 1/2, exhale 1/2, exhale another 1/2.
- ...
- inhale 1/8, inhale another 1/8, ... exhale 1/8, exhale another 1/8, ...

This training can help those who like to throw "chain punches" big time.

 

[geezer]

I There is a "sections breathing" training that you- inhale fully, exhale fully.
- inhale 1/2, inhale another 1/2, exhale 1/2, exhale another 1/2.
- inhale 1/8, inhale another 1/8, ... exhale 1/8, exhale another 1/8, ...
This training can help those who like to throw "chain punches" big time.

Standard practice in WC/WT/VT is to breathe freely and naturally, disconnecting the breathing from punching.

--However, when sparring, etc. I still prefer to exhale with my punches. As I tend to deliver punches in clusters or 3-shot combinations, chain-punches, etc. I use the method you describe, exhaling a fraction of my breath with each punch in the chain or combination.