What is wrong with wing chun

[DaveB]

One thing that often seems unmentioned in discussions about wing chun is the wooden dummy form.

As I've said I'm no expert, but the chuner doing wooden dummy is almost never still. The whole form seems to be footwork and escaping to range to kick and re-enter.

Are these skills not routinely extrapolated for longer range fighting.

Coming from interpreting karate kata, a principle of evasion such as the side stepping used in wooden dummy should translate to any sort of evasion including head movement and weaving.

In karate at least this isn't just tacking on other ideas. There's a 3 stage process for deciphering forms:
Bunkai - literal analysis of the forms.
Henka - application of the form
Oyo - application of the ideas but letting go of the pattern given by the form.

Now karate came out of southern kungfu so I imagine there is supposed to be a similar process at work in arts like wing chun.

 

[wckf92]

I don't know about you guys, but there is nothing wrong with my WC system (If I don't say this, soon or later someone will.).

All 3 WC forms do not involve with any footwork training. Why? One form that I have learned from the long fist system will require me to run across half of the basket ball field. When your opponent is standing still, I'll put my money on the WC guys. When your opponent is moving around, I'll put my money on other CMA systems.

This is my favor footwork training.

so in the WC you learned...you learned only 3 forms...all of which you stand there like a post?

 

[Knapf]

Just that I do not see why an art needs to have pek chui punch. It serves only purpose for your art. You would for instance not see it in MT. Does not mean they are inferior in punching.

Just saw you edited your post. Lol You are comparing the complete martial art of MT to the *censored* WC?
If we are talking about MT fighters of course they don't need pek chui.

 

[Phobius]

Just saw you edited your post. Lol You are comparing the complete martial art of MT to the *censored* WC?
If we are talking about MT fighters of course they don't need pek chui.

You are talking about WC as if it is a partial martial art? You do know it is very big but at the same time simplified with short forms and more compact trade of information by concepts.

So MT and WC are both very much complete arts just like so many others.

Also you contradict yourself. First you claim limited punching to hit someone one the top of the head. Then you say MT don't need any.

To me this sounds like a narrow view of arts and perhaps you should decide to learn the art or just not speak about what it is.

Of course this is all up to you.

Still the scenario you described sounds whacky to me so care to elaborate? Why do you want to have iron fingers and hitting someone on top of the head? It sounds quite fictional so I must misunderstand you somehow.

 

[Knapf]

You are talking about WC as if it is a partial martial art? You do know it is very big but at the same time simplified with short forms and more compact trade of information by concepts.

So MT and WC are both very much complete arts just like so many others.

Also you contradict yourself. First you claim limited punching to hit someone one the top of the head. Then you say MT don't need any.

I didn't contradict myself. You must have not understood the situation I was referring to. The WC guy attacks with a palm strike or a chain punch then while his fist or palm is in the air after guy ducks you need to shift it to a pek chui or a kup chui to knock his head. Of course if you don't like this example there should be many other variations of situations.
However if it was a Muay Thai guy he wouldn't chain punch or use a palm strike in the first place .If he used a punch and missed and the guy ducks he can just follow up with an uppercut. No pek chui needed.

To me this sounds like a narrow view of arts and perhaps you should decide to learn the art or just not speak about what it is.

No need to complete learning the art in order to comment on it. If somebody said the same thing about Hung Ga,I wouldn't say "You haven't learnt enough". I would ask what it was in the first few forms that made you quit?

Of course this is all up to you.

Still the scenario you described sounds whacky to me so care to elaborate? Why do you want to have iron fingers and hitting someone on top of the head? It sounds quite fictional so I must misunderstand you somehow.

My point at first with the example is to show that you need to be familliar with all sorts of different hand and leg moves.That was in reply to the comment

Fighting isn't about a breadth of techniques, it's about knowing how to hit with what you've got.

So I gave the example. Like I said if you don't like the example there would be others. MT and HG though wouldn't need to learn more varied techniques cause they are already complete martial arts.
Maybe you can give your own example/situation on how a WCnner would handle a situation and then we can discuss it?

 

[DanT]

Yeah right. Plenty of sow chuis. And you still haven't answered why tiger claw doesn't fit in but leopard fist does

I mentioned how the motion can be found in the double Fak Sao to double Lan Sao. The leopard fist (gerng choi in Wing Chun (ginger fist)) uses a whipping motion with the elbow fixed in place combined with the hips. If someone wants to use a "tiger claw" then that is cool, but tiger style motions, energy, timing, rhythm, is different than wing chun's. I'm not talking about forming a kitty paw and hitting people with it. I'm talking about using tiger style MOTIONS in Wing Chun contrasts with the nature of the art. The Gerng Choi motion uses Wing Chun mechanics, if could be replaced with any other hand formation and it wouldn't matter.

 

[Knapf]

I mentioned how the motion can be found in the double Fak Sao to double Lan Sao. The leopard fist (gerng choi in Wing Chun (ginger fist)) uses a whipping motion with the elbow fixed in place combined with the hips. If someone wants to use a "tiger claw" then that is cool, but tiger style motions, energy, timing, rhythm, is different than wing chun's. I'm not talking about forming a kitty paw and hitting people with it. I'm talking about using tiger style MOTIONS in Wing Chun contrasts with the nature of the art. The Gerng Choi motion uses Wing Chun mechanics, if could be replaced with any other hand formation and it wouldn't matter.

Even if you do have sow chui and charp chui,it isn't enough.
You may need the tiger claw to have a larger arsenal even if it is not "in nature" with the art. Bak Mei and Hung Ga use all the 5 animals instead of focusing on just 2. Yes, they both have 2 major animals but they still utilize everything. Feel free to disagree. WC guys might not even need to learn all the 5 animals of other arts but hopefully they can supplement with something else

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You act as if not learning the entire system is some kind of handicap . I can see that you are taking things personally?

If you haven't studied the entire curriculum of an art, claiming to know what is NOT in it, is foolish. You readily admit to not having learned the whole system, yet are certain of what was/was not in the parts you didn't get to.

And before you decide that's someone reacting to you insulting WC, I have exactly zero experience or investment in WC.

 

[Knapf]

If you haven't studied the entire curriculum of an art, claiming to know what is NOT in it, is foolish. You readily admit to not having learned the whole system, yet are certain of what was/was not in the parts you didn't get to.

And before you decide that's someone reacting to you insulting WC, I have exactly zero experience or investment in WC.

Come on. It is the one of the top two if not the TOP martial art that the other forum bashes all the time. There must be a large amount of truth in it. Everybody takes notice of such things due to the WC failures.

 

[DaveB]

If you are going to stand within arms reach of a guy and trade. You had quite simply better be a tough MF. (Martial Fan)

If you are going to leave your head in one spot. Which just happens to be directly down the middle of their firing line. You had better be a tough MF.

If you have no exit strategy if the exchange does not go the way you want. Well guest what you had better be.

If you are not training to be a tough MF you probably won't be in a fight.

And all off this is trying to be achieved with chain punches which have less power, less range and offer less protection than straight jab cross combinations. That is pretty much filling the same role.

Now if you were on a rooftop and some dude gave you the stink eye. Nailing him with four or five hard straight shots should work well.
(This is pretty much what I do in a street fight)

If you are doing your first two or three ring fights. Good straight punching and good cardio will generally win you the fight.

But as your opponent's skills increase and they become competent with head movement and 3 dimensional fighting you will get picked apart relying on the same old tricks.

If takedowns are involved. Sitting there throwing long combinations in arms reach is basically asking them to put you on your back.

I agree with most of the sentiments but I'm not sure if these suppositions represent what one is supposed to be doing when using the chun.

I mentioned the wooden dummy form and how it showcases more movement than I've ever seen in a wing chun fighter on YouTube.

Another thing I think chun fighters are probably supposed to do more of is to take advantage of head movement.

Head movement came out of boxing, but when you are fighting with kicks and grappling any body lean fixes your feet in place and leaves you vulnerable from the waist down.

My sifu was quite clear that we were to try and remain upright for this reason and was good at exploiting body lean. That's not to say we should get hit rather than weave, but moving the feet was preferable.

I'm sure any day now mma fighters will start routinely taking advantage of those with boxing backgrounds.
.

 

[DaveB]

Come on. It is the one of the top two if not the TOP martial art that the other forum bashes all the time. There must be some truth in it. Everybody takes notice of such things due to the WC failures.

As I pointed out this is not a style bashing thread. The aim is to analyse the art and the arguments against it to find out what if any truth there is in the criticisms.

If a person doesn't know what they're talking about their contribution should really be based around analysing or questioning the words of those that do.

 

[Knapf]

As I pointed out this is not a style bashing thread. The aim is to analyse the art and the arguments against it to find out what if any truth there is in the criticisms.

If a person doesn't know what they're talking about their contribution should really be based around analysing or questioning the words of those that do.

I didn't say this was a style bashing thread. If you feel I don't know what I'm talking about perhaps I can show it to you in person? But.....of course you're not gonna pay for the ticket.

 

[wckf92]

Come on. It is the one of the top two if not the TOP martial art that the other forum bashes all the time. There must be a large amount of truth in it. Everybody takes notice of such things due to the WC failures.

Wow.
Ummm...ok. Soooooo....let's recap shall we?
1. You were barely into WC's SLT and decided to quit because you apparently got some sort of premonition or divine foreknowledge that if you stayed you wouldn't learn the real stuff or that WC is lacking...
2. You bash on WC
3. Your adamant WC needs more and more striking options in case the bad guy does something other than what the WC knows or trains.
4. You come to a WC forum to inform us of how incomplete our WC is... because, .....wait for it......some other forum told you so....
Seems.....ummm....legit
Team.....have I missed anything!?!?

 

[Knapf]

Wow.
Ummm...ok. Soooooo....let's recap shall we?
1. You were barely into WC's SLT and decided to quit because you apparently got some sort of premonition or divine foreknowledge that if you stayed you wouldn't learn the real stuff or that WC is lacking...
2. You bash on WC
3. Your adamant WC needs more and more striking options in case the bad guy does something other than what the WC knows or trains.
4. You come to a WC forum to inform us of how incomplete our WC is... because, .....wait for it......some other forum told you so....
Seems.....ummm....legit
Team.....have I missed anything!?!?

Nope.You didn't get anything wrong. Congratulations! Now can you guess which forum that is, if you are very clever?

 

[Phobius]

Ignore Knapf and move on. A martial artist cares not for opinions of others but of their own experience.

Ignorance is not a good reason to start a fight. Some day his cup will become less full hopefully but it is not today.

 

[Knapf]

Ignore Knapf and move on. A martial artist cares not for opinions of others but of their own experience.

Ignorance is not a good reason to start a fight. Some day his cup will become less full hopefully but it is not today.

"Ignore so and so" are the words of those who can't hold their own in a discussion.

 

[Phobius]

"Ignore so and so" are the words of those who can't hold their own in a discussion.

You can't discuss with a child. Noone can except children themselves.

It all depends on who you discuss things with as it is a two way street.

 

[Knapf]

You can't discuss with a child. Noone can except children themselves.

It all depends on who you discuss things with as it is a two way street.

You mean you're the child?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Come on. It is the one of the top two if not the TOP martial art that the other forum bashes all the time. There must be a large amount of truth in it. Everybody takes notice of such things due to the WC failures.

And what, if anything, does that comment have to do with the fact that you've admitted to not knowing the entire curriculum, yet claim confidently to know what's not in it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Ignore so and so" are the words of those who can't hold their own in a discussion.

Not really.