What is wrong with wing chun

[Phobius]

Chain punching the top of the head doesn't do damage. Try it for yourself. You will feel awkward.
Biu jiing the eyes works but you have to pull back after doing a palm strike . Crane beak doesn't penetrate the top of head unless you have iron fingers. Snake hand strike after doing a palm strike which was hangin in the air wouldn't hurt the top part of the head either. Elbowing the top of the head works but you have to curve your arm. The best few moves that would be faster after the chain or palm strike that hangs in the air(and needs to move downward) is a pek chui or a kup choi. I made a mistake here by suggesting sow chui. Sow chui requires a pulling back action so it's not fast enough here.

My point is to have varied options to use at your disposal. Somebody who is unfortunate to have learnt only limited hand techniques,say pek chui and kup choi etc and not knowing chain punching, biu jee, snake hand ,crane beak and elbow is also at a disadvantage.

Hitting the top of the head?!

You do know the top of the head can take serious damage? Ever tried running into a steel bar at full speed? It hurts but it does not knock you down (yea I did get quite dizzy after a while when it sank in what I just did). Now imagine if your skull can handle a steel bar, how well would those knuckles take it?

 

[DanT]

Yes.Very true. But I can bet that even in your own WC,there are limited hand strikes and leg strikes. For example no fu jow, ying jow, charp chui, pek chui, sow chui, spinning back fist, kup chui, uppercut, phoenix eye strikes. You will need to have those in your arsenal just in case the fight doesn't go as planned.

I don't understand, Wing Chun doesn't have a tiger claw because it doesn't fit the snake crane engine of the system. There isn't any attack that I can think of that you would need a tiger claw or an eagle claw to defend against, Wing Chun techniques will work fine. This is coming from someone who also practices and trains tiger claw.

Charp chui, Pec Chui, Sow Chui, Spinning Backfist, and uppercuts are Wing Chun techniques.

 

[wckf92]

I don't understand, Wing Chun doesn't have a tiger claw because it doesn't fit the snake crane engine of the system. There isn't any attack that I can think of that you would need a tiger claw or an eagle claw to defend against, Wing Chun techniques will work fine. This is coming from someone who also practices and trains tiger claw.

Charp chui, Pec Chui, Sow Chui, Spinning Backfist, and uppercuts are Wing Chun techniques.

I wouldn't worry about it too much...he (knapf) didn't study WC very long and then left for whatever he is learning not (CLF?). So, I don't think he has a full understanding of WC like you may have.

 

[Knapf]

I don't understand, Wing Chun doesn't have a tiger claw because it doesn't fit the snake crane engine of the system. There isn't any attack that I can think of that you would need a tiger claw or an eagle claw to defend against, Wing Chun techniques will work fine. This is coming from someone who also practices and trains tiger claw.

WC techniques will work fine until you meet an opponent who "introduces" a new technique to you.

Charp chui, Pec Chui, Sow Chui, Spinning Backfist, and uppercuts are Wing Chun techniques.

Don't lie to yourself. They are NOT Wing Chun techniques. Tiger claw doesn't fit into the snake crane style but charp chui(leopard) is a WC technique? Yup. I can bet that the SLT,CK and BJ forms have penetrating/leopard fist and large right hooks. You even swing your body around while in yee ji kim yeung ma stance in order to do the spinning backfist.

 

[Knapf]

I wouldn't worry about it too much...he (knapf) didn't study WC very long and then left for whatever he is learning not (CLF?). So, I don't think he has a full understanding of WC like you may have.

The full understanding of getting beaten up.

 

[Knapf]

Hitting the top of the head?!

You do know the top of the head can take serious damage? Ever tried running into a steel bar at full speed? It hurts but it does not knock you down (yea I did get quite dizzy after a while when it sank in what I just did). Now imagine if your skull can handle a steel bar, how well would those knuckles take it?

What's your point? That the top of the head is quite though? A proper pek chui can deal with the top of the head easily.

 

[DanT]

WC techniques will work fine until you meet an opponent who "introduces" a new technique to you.


Don't lie to yourself. They are NOT Wing Chun techniques. Tiger claw doesn't fit into the snake crane style but charp chui(leopard) is a WC technique?Oh please. As for Sow Chui,there is no video in the universe where it is shown that WCnners use a large right hook

I don't understand, there are only so many angles of attack that the opponent can strike me from, I don't care about the formation of his hand. Wing Chun techniques are enough to deal with these angles of attack. Charp Chui is launched in a whipping motion in the Biu Jee form in certain lineages (which I assume you never learned). Sow Chui I learned in SLT, as a long hooking motion, after double Jaam Sao (AKA Fak Sao), double Sow Chui, double Lan Sao, double Chum Sao... you never learned Wing Chun properly, you never completed the system, yet you are telling ME what's in it or not?

 

[Knapf]

I don't understand, there are only so many angles of attack that the opponent can strike me from, I don't care about the formation of his hand. Wing Chun techniques are enough to deal with these angles of attack. Charp Chui is launched in a whipping motion in the Biu Jee form in certain lineages (which I assume you never learned). Sow Chui I learned in SLT, as a long hooking motion, after double Jaam Sao (AKA Fak Sao), double Sow Chui, double Lan Sao, double Chum Sao... you never learned Wing Chun properly, you never completed the system, yet you are telling ME what's in it or not?

Yeah right. Plenty of sow chuis. And you still haven't answered why tiger claw doesn't fit in but leopard fist does

 

[wckf92]

@DanT ... for context....

 

[Knapf]

@DanT ... for context....



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You act as if not learning the entire system is some kind of handicap . I can see that you are taking things personally?

 

[wckf92]

You act as if not learning the entire system is some kind of handicap . I can see that you are taking things personally?

Not at all...just offering @DanT some context...as I stated.

...carry on!

 

[Knapf]

Not at all...just offering @DanT some context...as I stated.

...carry on!

 

[DaveB]

You act as if not learning the entire system is some kind of handicap . I can see that you are taking things personally?

If you want to discuss the content of the art it is.

 

[Knapf]

If you want to discuss the content of the art it is.

Unless the art is *censored*

 

[Phobius]

What's your point? That the top of the head is quite though? A proper pek chui can deal with the top of the head easily.

My point is that I have no clue what you are talking about because it seems like a silly scenario. If the guy ducks so you hit the top of his head... that means he is not low enough so you can not hit the entire area of his face. Thinking that my aim will be to somehow try and strike through the skull bone is just strange.

The guy ducked, he will recover and move. If he ducks to low. Kick him. If not, punch him.

What you are talking about are just attacks that might not be part of WC curriculum. Does not mean that you have any clue all the amount of punches that are available when training WC. Not saying this to somehow defend. Just that I do not see why an art needs to have pek chui punch. It serves only purpose for your art. You would for instance not see it in MT. Does not mean they are inferior in punching.

As a tip, in WC it is not a "here we have the punching techniques". And to think that you mention chain punching which in fact is not even a "technique" but rather several different methods to generate power in a single "exercise".

I think your problem is that you wish to state what an art is after being a beginner at it, while trying to match that with an art that you have better understanding of.

It is like someone that drew a picture as a child tries to give a lession to an artist that copied Mona Lisa on what painting techniques there are. (Shitty reference but I know less about artists and painters than I care to admit)

Perhaps a gentler approach or just lets not talk about what is wrong with an art we do not study.

 

[Knapf]

My point is that I have no clue what you are talking about because it seems like a silly scenario. If the guy ducks so you hit the top of his head... that means he is not low enough so you can not hit the entire area of his face. Thinking that my aim will be to somehow try and strike through the skull bone is just strange.

The guy ducked, he will recover and move. If he ducks to low. Kick him. If not, punch him.

Seems like this can only be solved through a real life demonstration

What you are talking about are just attacks that might not be part of WC curriculum. Does not mean that you have any clue all the amount of punches that are available when training WC.

It should be part of the curriculum but it doesn't. Too bad

It is not a "here we have the punching techniques". And to think that you mention chain punching which in fact is not even a "technique" but rather several different methods to generate power in a single "exercise".

I think your problem is that you wish to state what an art is after being a beginner at it, while trying to match that with an art that you have better understanding of.

It is like someone that drew a picture as a child tries to give a lession to an artist that copied Mona Lisa on what painting techniques there are.

Wouldn't someone who drew a picture as a child have more experience?That's a good compliment I might say.

 

[drop bear]

If you are going to stand within arms reach of a guy and trade. You had quite simply better be a tough MF. (Martial Fan)

If you are going to leave your head in one spot. Which just happens to be directly down the middle of their firing line. You had better be a tough MF.

If you have no exit strategy if the exchange does not go the way you want. Well guest what you had better be.

If you are not training to be a tough MF you probably won't be in a fight.

And all off this is trying to be achieved with chain punches which have less power, less range and offer less protection than straight jab cross combinations. That is pretty much filling the same role.

Now if you were on a rooftop and some dude gave you the stink eye. Nailing him with four or five hard straight shots should work well.
(This is pretty much what I do in a street fight)

If you are doing your first two or three ring fights. Good straight punching and good cardio will generally win you the fight.

But as your opponent's skills increase and they become competent with head movement and 3 dimensional fighting you will get picked apart relying on the same old tricks.

If takedowns are involved. Sitting there throwing long combinations in arms reach is basically asking them to put you on your back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know about you guys, but there is nothing wrong with my WC system (If I don't say this, soon or later someone will.).

All 3 WC forms do not involve with any footwork training. Why? One form that I have learned from the long fist system will require me to run across half of the basket ball field. When your opponent is standing still, I'll put my money on the WC guys. When your opponent is moving around, I'll put my money on other CMA systems.

This is my favor footwork training.

 

[Knapf]

I don't understand, there are only so many angles of attack that the opponent can strike me from, I don't care about the formation of his hand. Wing Chun techniques are enough to deal with these angles of attack. Charp Chui is launched in a whipping motion in the Biu Jee form in certain lineages (which I assume you never learned). Sow Chui I learned in SLT, as a long hooking motion, after double Jaam Sao (AKA Fak Sao), double Sow Chui, double Lan Sao, double Chum Sao... you never learned Wing Chun properly, you never completed the system, yet you are telling ME what's in it or not?

What happened? You only Dislike my comment but you don't answer. You afraid to reply cause people can see that you are lying about all those non WC moves?

 

[Phobius]

If you are going to stand within arms reach of a guy and trade. You had quite simply better be a tough MF. (Martial Fan)

Trading punches is not any intent in WC. Of course this does happen in all arts if rules enforce it or the fighters don't know what they do.

If you are going to leave your head in one spot. Which just happens to be directly down the middle of their firing line. You had better be a tough MF.

This is a major problem not in WC but in people's perceived notion of what WC should be like. Not only from those with opinions but more often from those learning WC.

If you take a short range weapon to think movement of body and feet are not a major priority such as having good footwork then you have a strange understanding of fighting.

I would like to see someone being so cold to stand still when someone attacks with a sharp knife.

If you have no exit strategy if the exchange does not go the way you want. Well guest what you had better be.

If you are not training to be a tough MF you probably won't be in a fight.

WC I agree might often lack an exit strategy. While I have offensive retreat there is maybe a whole world of exit strategies that could be explored more..

And all off this is trying to be achieved with chain punches which have less power, less range and offer less protection than straight jab cross combinations. That is pretty much filling the same role.

Chain punching is not a technique. In fact it is probably not at all what you think. See it more like different ways to generate power that may be drilled or used as you like.

What is wrong with WC here is that many who even study WC seems to think chain punching is a method to hit your opponent in a "devastating" way.

Now if you were on a rooftop
and some dude gave you the stink eye. Nailing him with four or five hard straight shots should work well.
(This is pretty much what I do in a street fight)

If you are doing your first two or three ring fights. Good straight punching and good cardio will generally win you the fight.

But as your opponent's skills increase and they become competent with head movement and 3 dimensional fighting you will get picked apart relying on the same old tricks.

Tricks are what people use that can not fight. WC has head, body and feet movement. It is the goal to master footwork and angles so you never need to move in the first place but we as in almost all of us are not there.

We move quite a bit.

As for our older masters movement has become limited with age but then the problem is that us younger students see them on YouTube and think this is what we need to be.

Problem is that too much information before we know enough means we know less than before.

If takedowns are involved. Sitting there throwing long combinations in arms reach is basically asking them to put you on your back.

Well this I personally believe is a major issue. WC might have the answer but it does not matter because noone can do proper takedowns so it can't be drilled under pressure.

This is why cross training for instance BJJ might be a good idea.