What Is A McDojo?

[Kframe]

Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo. It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction. IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone.. Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion. This is typical of Mcdojo's their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.

Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese? If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo. It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction. IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone.. Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion. This is typical of Mcdojo's their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.

Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese? If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only overweight instructor here.

Perhaps you might consider that you don't know anything about them. Perhaps they're chronically on steroids for a respiratory illness. Perhaps there are endocrine issues. Perhaps there are orthopedic issues that prevent them from exercising the way they would like.
None of that affects their knowledge, or their ability to pass that knowledge on.

My master is also overweight. We do not have a tourney focused school, but we do take students to tourneys on occasion. In the last year, we've taken students to three open (any style) events. We did not have students in every event, but every single one of our students finished in the top three in their class. As a matter of fact, the only bronze medal one of our students brought home was in a class that other students of ours took gold and silver.

I'd say we're doing a fairly creditable job of training these students, despite our obesity.

Your post, I will say bluntly, was more than a little insulting. In some ways, even more so because you yourself are still considerably more overweight than some of those you're insulting.

 

[Kframe]

Im not offering to teach martial arts. That's the big difference. How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape? The nature of just training will help you get into shape. The only way I see it happeing, is if the instructor is spending there time talking and not training with the class. http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=657

Yes I am a large guy, and im working on my weight, but if your going to teach the arts of mars, you need to be in shape. You should be able to you know actually fight for more then 40 seconds with out dying..

I just don't trust over weight instructors, just as I wouldn't trust my self to train me if I was thin..

 

[Dirty Dog]

Im not offering to teach martial arts. That's the big difference. How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape? The nature of just training will help you get into shape. The only way I see it happeing, is if the instructor is spending there time talking and not training with the class. http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=657

Yes I am a large guy, and im working on my weight, but if your going to teach the arts of mars, you need to be in shape. You should be able to you know actually fight for more then 40 seconds with out dying..

I just don't trust over weight instructors, just as I wouldn't trust my self to train me if I was thin..

As I said, I am overweight.
Last time I entered a tourney, I took silver in weapons sparring and in open sparring. In the open sparring, I stepped down from my class to the 35-40 YO class. Despite fighting people ~15 years younger than me, I had no difficulty going considerably longer than 40 seconds without dying. Nor do I have any difficulty going several rounds with the 18-20YO BBs in our program.

And of course, a fight (as opposed to sparring) rarely lasts more than 30 seconds anyway.

I do not train with the class. I'm there to TEACH, not train. If I'm training, I'm not paying as much attention to the students as I ought to be.

 

[Kframe]

K man im not attacking you, I have never had any issues with you in the past. I am personally stating my opinion and what I have observed from certified Mcdojo's in my area.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo. It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction. IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone.. Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion. This is typical of Mcdojo's their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I've had instructors who are svelte and trim who were horrible and one instructor who was coincidentally female who started off obese and eventually was morbidly obese, though not as heavy as the lady you mentioned. This lady was an excellent instructor. Her school was not a McDojo. I learned a lot from her, and she really helped me to make some breakthroughs in technique that two previous svelte instructors had been unable to help me with. Not that they were bad instructors, but she had the key to the puzzle that I was trying to unlock.

I got to know her well enough to know why she was the way that she was. She didn't have an easy life outside of the dojang. As a business owner, she stumbled a lot, but as a human being and as an instructor, she was wonderful.

And lest anyone think that I'm being defensive, I'm not. I happen to be one of the svelte, trim people who would look at home on the cover of an MA catalog wearing their featured gi or dobok.

Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese? If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?

You shouldn't trust anyone based on their looks. I tend to look at the quality of the students they turn out and how I feel about the environment after a class. I look at the black belts/yudansha/equivalent and see what their practice looks like, as that says more about the teacher than the teacher's physique.

But even if the students look like the Korean Olympic team, if I don't feel right about the environment, then I move on. So far, the weight of the instructor has never been a factor in a negative training environment for me. The issues generally are more in the instructional culture of the studio.

There was a time when I would subject myself to unhealthy training environments because the studio selection wasn't all that great, but now I have lots of choices in many arts to choose from and I have a much clearer idea of what I want from a school than I did when I was younger.

Additionally, the McDojos that I have encountered have been owned and staffed largely (though by no means exclusively) by people who were at healthy weights. Perhaps it's the area, but I haven't found weight and McDojo-ism to have any direct connection.

To each their own. I'm not going to tell you not to feel as you do, and based on your response, this seems to be a fairly deeply seated belief for you, but I respectfully disagree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Im not offering to teach martial arts. That's the big difference. How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape?

Age, injury, various medications for conditions that crop up as people age, emotional issues due to going through rough personal issues, or just plain daily stress.

And yes, bad eating habits and more time teaching than training can also do that. Too much regular intake of beer, chips, and Tex-Mex BBQ can undo even good workout habits. And martial arts instructors are as human as anyone else, regardless of how anime and Hollywood portray us, and have their own areas of vulnerability.

I had to take time to really focus on my personal training after I started teaching. Teaching takes time. I work hard to put together lessons and to look for ways to improve my classes for my students. When I'm teaching, I tend to only 'train' in the capacity of being a partner. My main function is to see what my students are doing and to help identify and correct training issues.

The fact that I also fence epee, small sword, and train in a variety of things outside of the art that I teach also helps.

 

[Kframe]

You have to understand, I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.

Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.

 

[K-man]

K man im not attacking you, I have never had any issues with you in the past. I am personally stating my opinion and what I have observed from certified Mcdojo's in my area.

Never for one moment thought you were attacking me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You have to understand, I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.

Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.

You don't need to hate yourself. You also don't need to judge someone's knowledge and ability to teach based on something that's irrelevant to those two things.
Judge me by the quality of my students. I'm OK with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[ballen0351]

. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.

I feel you may have a fantasy view of martial arts and martial arts teachers.

 

[jks9199]

You have to understand, I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.

Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.

Are your feelings towards yourself being unfairly projected onto these people? The simple reality is that MA instructors often don't have the luxury of hours and hours of time to work on fitness and run their schools. Sometimes its more than a little challenging simply to fit your own MA training in with teaching duties...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

[WaterGal]

I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them 9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.

Korean styles tend to promote kids to black belt if they work hard an stick with it long enough, I don't think having a bunch of 10-year old black belts is, in itself, a sign of being a "McDojo". The question just is - do they work hard? Are they any good? It sounds like these kids had terrible behavior, which makes me wonder why they were promoted.

I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.

That's a rebreakable board, a training tool. They come in various difficulties, to simulate different sized boards. They're a good way for people to practice doing a new board break or combo without wasting real boards. My question would be: what techniques were they using? Are we talking side kick or tornado kick?

 

[WaterGal]

Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo. It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction. IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone.. Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion. This is typical of Mcdojo's their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.

Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese? If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?

Agreed. I don't expect a martial arts teacher to have cut muscles like a movie star, I sure as hell don't, but they should not be obese. How can they teach people to be more fit, to be fast and strong and strike hard and have endurance, if they're 100 pounds overweight? My personal experience is that people who are at that level of obesity often struggle to even just walk a mile - how can they lead an intense workout class?

 

[WaterGal]

You have to understand, I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.

Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.

Don't hate yourself! Being obese isn't something to be ashamed of or to hate yourself for - it's a health problem. And It sounds like you're working hard to improve yourself. You said you've lost 100 lbs, right? That's fantastic. Keep going! I bet in another year you'll be under 300 lbs.

 

[Mauthos]

This thread has taken an interesting swing regarding the weight issue and it is something quite important to me as I too used to have the opinion that an instructor should not be obese.

That was until I developed diabetes.

Now at the time I was still in the military, relatively fit and although I have always had a small belly I would not have been considered fat let alone obese. However, as I adjusted to my new life style and being a civillian with the addition of insulin I rapidly gained weight, approximately 3 stone and I definitely felt obese and looked it.

At this time I had also just started teaching and I hated people turning up who instantly judged me for the size I was. Now I believe that you must be in some sort of good physical shape and fitness to be an effective martial artist and therefore the first 30 minutes of my lessons always comprise of a small circuit with the intent to wear my students out and push them (other reason apart from fitnes is to tire the muscles a bit as then they always seem to lose that tensness that beginners have if a little exhausted).

The problem I encountered was as I was running the class I did not participate with the exercise and would only state when one would be struggling, that I would only make them do things that I myself could do. Therefore, obviously when they struggled I would get the doubtful looks and the calls to prove it which meant that sure enough, I had to prove it.

Now my seniors do not question my ability, they have been with me long enough to know my ability as a teacher is sound and that in fact I can do everything I put them through.

Luckily, with my diabetes under control I have lost most of the weight I have put on and I am aiming to lose another stone to be truly happy. This will make me just under 15 stone. So I am still a heavy guy, I must point out that most of the men in my family are short and stocky and I am happy that now I look more weighed down by muscle than fat.

What I am trying to say with this long winded post, is don't judge a book by its cover. At my fatest I was still training hard, back then and even to this day I do an average of 500 press ups and 500 sit ups a day. When I was at my largest I completed insanity twice, without cheating, I attended body combat sessions and circuits on a weekly basis on top of my tang soo do training and kick boxing. However, due to the illness and the medication, I couldn't shift the weight, but believe me I could still train hard and fighting in the ring or on the matts was still my favoured aspect of martial arts. I was still respected by my peers and I could still hold my own, usually my cardio out stripping those I fought against.

So, please, judge someone on their merits, their students, their ability to impart their knowledge, until you get to know the person you can never truly understand why they are the way they are.

 

[Kframe]

I feel you may have a fantasy view of martial arts and martial arts teachers.

How is it a fantasy? Martial arts were originally for warriors. I think its a little disingenuous to say its a fantasy. Saying I have a fantasy is a subtle way to say you think im a child on his mommies computer.. Sorry I am not a child, I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors, protectors, the sheepdogs. This view point does not make me immature nor does it mean I live in a fantasy.

 

[Kframe]

Muathos and others.

I see what your saying. Its just that I have a hard time taking people seriously, if I don't know them, if they are that heavy and claim to teach a martial art. There is 2 sportive karate and 1 wtf/kkw tkd school in my town. With out a hitch every single one of the instructors and students at each of these places is not only trim, but in excellent physical shape. Especially the 52 year old TKD owner and head instructor. So you can imagine my shock when I started going into the more mcdojoish schools like the Trias school and the ATA and noticed that most of them were heavy and obese.

Maybe I am judging people, the way they judge me.. Oh look another thing to meditate on today..

 

[lklawson]

Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo. It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction. IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone.. Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion. This is typical of Mcdojo's their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.

I don't think I agree. Many martial arts today are billed as dual purpose exercise programs and martial programs. To be fair, this has been a common theme in western expectations of eastern martial arts for a very long time. That aside, it is not the goal of every martial art to foster a low body mass index or anything else that we, with modern western sensibilities, might consider "good health." The goal was to to kill the opponent. Sometimes having an extra layer of fat would have been advantageous. It provides extra padding which can act almost like armor and the increased mass give advantages that no one can deny. There's a reason that boxing, judo, and wrestling have weight classes. It's the same reason that Sumoka appear to be such lard-ohs. But they're not. Some modern research has indicated that "fat" people tend to have more muscle beneath their fat. Makes sense. They have to in order to move the extra weight around.

My experience is that fat people have the advantage of mass on their side. It's hard to over-estimate that advantage. But usually they also gas out really quick. Usually, not always, because they have very poor cardio. But a fat person can have decent cardio too. It's uncommon, I admit, but possible. And if the "fat" person also has skill in addition to mass and cardio, then the lighter person is well and truly borked. "Fat" people can move just as quick as anyone else, and they can cover short distances surprisingly fast.

I recall a martial arts friend of mine who related that "in the old country" the most dangerous instructor he know was an over-weight, chain-smoking, alcoholic. He lived hard, trained hard, fought hard, and expected to die young.

Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese? If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?

Maybe, instead, you should judge her on whether or not she's skilled at the martial art she's attempting to teach and whether or not she can effectively teach it. What she looks like is a pretty arbitrary method of determining skill.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape?

You know the old saying, "The bigger they are, the harder they hit."

You should be able to you know actually fight for more then 40 seconds with out dying..

Being "fat" doesn't mean that they can't. Oh, and do you know how long the average "fight" lasts?

I just don't trust over weight instructors, just as I wouldn't trust my self to train me if I was thin..

That's your bias, though. It's not objective.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk