What Is A McDojo?

[MJS]

This.

I dislike "used car" sales tactics. Yes, sales is the lifeblood of the school. Without sales, we don't have income to pay the rent, keep the lights on, etc. But every sales seminar I've ever been to has been all about "SHOW ME THE MONEY!". Don't let the student walk out without signing a contract and writing a check. Yadda, yadda.

I hate this. I have a sales pitch in my school. It's low-key and I do have a closing hook. But it stops there. If they don't want to sign up on a 4 weeks for $49 trail, they're more than likely not gonna sign a long-term agreement. My refusal to play the "after the word no" games is probably why I have a small school. It's also the reason that I have satisfied students with a very low attrition rate. I want people in my school who see the value in what we teach, not just another body in a uniform going through the motions.

Sorry for the late reply, as I just saw this. I'm with you 100% on this! My current dojo didn't use any high pressure sales junk to get me in. I went in, I inquired about classes. I was told to take a few trial classes to see if Kyokushin is something that I'd like, and also because his classes were hard and not for everyone. Boy, he wasn't kidding! LOL! I've been there 2yrs now, and I love it!! It was my teachers love for the art he teaches, his desire to spread that art, his humbleness, among other things, that got me in the door, not a fancy sales pitch.

 

[Kframe]

Here is another one from 2012.

Same problem. ZERO striking defense. Why in gods name is there no striking defense. There are plenty more IMS videos out there, and they all show a lack of striking defense. WHY?!!!

You say you focus on TKD, do you train to actually know how to and have to practice of dealing with high punch's and low kicks? All I see from normal ATA sparring is the same BS sparring as the KKW guys do. Hands by my butt and playing foot tag. How does that teach anyone to defend anything other then kicks?

Step sparring does not prepare you for dealing with rapid fire punch's to the head. So unless there is some other method of sparring that, has yet to be shown on video, I don't believe it exists. The only way to learn how to Use your defenses against a punch to the head is to have people punching you. There is no way around that. If the students only exposure to head punching and other tech, I in step sparring(looking at both the ata and kkw) isn't that a disservice to the student for not preparing them for some of the common attacks out there?

Being a instructor I cant believe you don't support ima more. It is the closest thing to a real fight anyone will get outside of a pub.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Balrog, go to that fighters 2012 fight, 1 year and several fights and training later, and it does not show any improvement or striking defense. You say you focus on TKD, do you train to actually know how to and have to practice of dealing with high punch's and low kicks? All I see from normal ATA sparring is the same BS sparring as the KKW guys do. Hands by my butt and playing foot tag. How does that teach anyone to defend anything other then kicks?

That's odd. I teach at a Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school, and we don't spar like that. Ever. When I trained at ITF schools, we didn't spar that way either.

There is more to TKD (and pretty much everything else) than you can find on YouBoob.

 

[Kframe]

That's odd. I teach at a Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school, and we don't spar like that. Ever. When I trained at ITF schools, we didn't spar that way either.

There is more to TKD (and pretty much everything else) than you can find on YouBoob.

That's funny because the only KKW school in town, that is the only way they spar... I was under the impression that was the standard sparring format. Even if what you say is true, that does not explain the total lack of striking defense in ANY IMS video(And some ITF videos I have watched). The question remains WHY!?

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's funny because the only KKW school in town, that is the only way they spar... I was under the impression that was the standard sparring format. Even if what you say is true, that does not explain the total lack of striking defense in ANY IMS video(And some ITF videos I have watched). The question remains WHY!?

So you base your opinion of thousands of schools on ONE school? Not all TKD schools are sport focused.
From this and other things you've posted, you seem to tend towards judgments based on inadequate and/or incorrect assumptions (i.e. overweight instructors can't possibly be any good).
Enjoy your training. Get as much from it as possible. But please stop assuming that your very limited exposure to a system defines the system.

 

[Kframe]

Dirty dog, there are more then enough videos on youtube to back up my beliefs. I have yet to see ANY video of anyone in TKD of any flavor actually display quality striking defense in a limited rules sparring situation, or even in there Olympic sparring.. Show me some videos that prove me wrong. There is nearly 20 years worth of Olympic and non Olympic TKD sparring available on Youtube.

This is not a rush to judgment, this is a observation born out of video evidence. The very fact that the Olympic TKD guys don't even use the same deflections that the traditionalists use, and came up with there own is also out there and even acknowledged on the blogosphere.

I want truth when it comes to martial arts. If your art will teach you things but only for the purposes of grading and those things will not be used and are considered detrimental in sparring then I want to know. What you say and others on this forum say about TKD and what I am constantly seeing do not correlate to each other in the slightest.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why do people have such difficulty grasping the simple reality that YouTube is not research?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[Kframe]

Because, with so many different people, millions of them posting on the same subject you would think at least a good portion of those videos would contain good striking defense.
I am a fanatic when it comes to striking defense, it is the single most important thing to me. I judge any stand up art on their striking defense. What good is awesome punchs and kicks if you cant defend your self from said punchs and kicks.. I have no leeway in my mind with regards to striking defense.

If youtube only contained a few hundred TKD videos, I would agree with you. Except there are MILLIONS of them. Every single one I have so far clicked on showed poor striking defense.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kframe, the majority of what is on Youtube for most martial arts probably shouldn't be posted. People post things that they really shouldn't. And not everyone who runs a school is on Youtube posting videos.

Yes, there are some good videos out there, and some are representative of the arts that they're associated with, but there is also a lot of superfluous junk.

As far as the "BS sparring that kkw guys do," I would challenge you to step into the ring against any high level KKW competitor before calling it BS.

WTF sport taekwondo is highly specialized and the people who compete in it at high levels are like any other high level athlete; they live, eat, sleep, and breath their sport.

As for how to defend against attacks not allowed in WTF sparring, we trained in plenty at the last KKW studio I trained in.

ATA sparring, from what I have seen, is similar in rules to WTF sparring, but it is light contact, while WTF sparring is full contact (ATA folks feel free to correct me if I am mistaken).

I really don't care what their sparring style is like or even what their forms are like. I'm more interested in what things look like at the local school level. Which as you know, can vary quite a bit within any art. Videos of the ATA school in California may look stellar or they may look horrible, but they aren't the school in Maryland. To know what that school is like, I would need to visit them and check them out for myself.

I'm speaking hypothetically, of course as I'm not sure that there's a single ATA school in my state.

 

[ballen0351]

Why do people have such difficulty grasping the simple reality that YouTube is not research?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

No Truer Words have been Spoken on MT

 

[Gnarlie]

What you say and others on this forum say about TKD and what I am constantly seeing do not correlate to each other in the slightest.

Of course they don't. What is said here on this forum reflects the experience of people with depth of training in Taekwondo. What is seen on Youtube mostly reflects the experience of people who have practiced the art superficially at best. Youtube typically represents the popular and sport aspects of the art, and does not do so with any kind of depth. A million videos of the surface of a lake will not tell you what's under the water.

For the record, I practice Kukki TKD and striking defence is high on the agenda. It's somewhat naive to suggest that a continually evolving striking art with at least a half century of history (depending who you ask) does not and has never contained a legitimate quality striking defence. It might not use the same principles as the striking defence you personally use, but it is definitely there.

An observation born out of video evidence is a rush to judgement. Unless you've been there, and trained there (with depth), you're not in a position to make a call. Which brings me to the thread topic.

What is a McDojo? 'McDojo' is a term that came about when immodest individuals didn't adhere to the ethical standards of their own arts and began judging one another. It is a term created and used by immodest individuals to devalue and discredit the training of others. Individuals in martial arts created the term, and without them both the term 'McDojo' and the attendant negative publicity that it brings to the martial arts would not exist. Those in the martial arts have created a rod for their own backs by judging and criticising others. They have brought negative examples of the arts that they practice into the public eye, and those negative examples are now the ones that perpetuate and contribute to the stereotyping of arts. That's the reason why Youtube is not a reliable source of information when researching and attempting to form a complete image of an individual martial art - Youtube follows popular perception, not reality.

 

[msmitht]

Looking at the above video makes me wish that it was not affiliated with any form of tkd. I practice kkw tkd, the full contact style, and bjj. There was not much by way of technique, offense or defense, being displayed. If I were to look at it as a tkd practitioner I would have to say that there was no power in any of the kicks nor was there proper timing/set up on order to land them. As a bjj practitioner i would tell them to go take a beginners class and not wear a black belt for about 10-12 years. It was ugly and not practical.
If this is an accurate representation of their respective schools then I would have conclude that either they attend a mcdojo or are at a school that starts at black and goes to white.

 

[Balrog]

You say you focus on TKD, do you train to actually know how to and have to practice of dealing with high punch's and low kicks? All I see from normal ATA sparring is the same BS sparring as the KKW guys do. Hands by my butt and playing foot tag. How does that teach anyone to defend anything other then kicks?

Of course we do. Yes, our tournament sparring rules say no punching to the head, etc. But there isn't a sparring class in my school where I don't do at least one full round where I allow head punching or low kicks. I do so because I understand that there is a sport aspect and a self-defense aspect, and I never want my students to lose sight of the self-defense aspect.

Step sparring does not prepare you for dealing with rapid fire punch's to the head. So unless there is some other method of sparring that, has yet to be shown on video, I don't believe it exists.

One-steps were never intended to do that. They are intended to be a transitional utility where beginning students practice timing, distancing and control.

The only way to learn how to Use your defenses against a punch to the head is to have people punching you. There is no way around that. If the students only exposure to head punching and other tech, I in step sparring(looking at both the ata and kkw) isn't that a disservice to the student for not preparing them for some of the common attacks out there?

Being a instructor I cant believe you don't support ima more. It is the closest thing to a real fight anyone will get outside of a pub.

Because I am an instructor, I teach my students to avoid fights instead of getting into them. Sun Tzu says it better than I do:

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

 

[Balrog]

Ours is light contact by intent, but reality is a different matter. It's a martial art - you're gonna get hit. Period. You're not a true martial artist until you had your bell rung. I've had mine rung so many times, I can imitate the local church on Sunday morning.

And you can go to ataonline.com, find a school, then plug in your zip code and it will tell you where the nearest ATA school is to you.

 

[Balrog]

Why do people have such difficulty grasping the simple reality that YouTube is not research?

<Bowing while typing>

Well stated, sir!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ours is light contact by intent, but reality is a different matter. It's a martial art - you're gonna get hit. Period. You're not a true martial artist until you had your bell rung. I've had mine rung so many times, I can imitate the local church on Sunday morning.

And you can go to ataonline.com, find a school, then plug in your zip code and it will tell you where the nearest ATA school is to you.

Thanks! Leesburg VA is the nearest location is Leesburg. When I enter Maryland as my location, it says that there are none.

 

[wimwag]

To me, a McDojo uses high pressure, used-car sales tactics. In addition, their belt promotions are based on whether the check for the testing fee clears the bank, rather than whether or not the student can actually perform the material.

We have one of those here. They were offering a free trial, so I decided to use that as an intro to martial arts for my daughter. When the 8th class was over, they had presentation packets and a chart showing what each level of "commitment to the art" guaranteed. Just $1200 and my kid would be guaranteed her White belt/yellow stripe! You have to buy the book to become a black belt. Oh and the classes were taught by "brown belts." The big sign on the wall said "We are a black belt academy." That, people, is a McDojo. And for some reason, they are a thriving business.

 

[wimwag]

Thanks! Leesburg VA is the nearest location is Leesburg. When I enter Maryland as my location, it says that there are none.

I found this one in Elkton, Maryland.

http://www.atamaryland.com/index.htm

 

[PhotonGuy]

In another thread, Dan and I were having a discussion about the term McDojo. This was sparked from a discussion of a school and their testing methods. Rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start this thread, so we could find out what people consider a McDojo.

A school will be exposed as a McDojo at tournaments, when the performance of its students is compared with the performance of students at other dojos.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A school will be exposed as a McDojo at tournaments, when the performance of its students is compared with the performance of students at other dojos.

Not necessarily. Some McDojos don't participate in tournaments at all, and given the market demographic they tend to focus on, the likelihood of being exposed by swaths of their students getting hammered in tournaments is fairly low.

Also, a lot of schools have in house tournaments, and if the owner has more than one school, it can seem like a really big deal to his or her students.

Finally, a lousy tournament performance is not a big McDojo reveal. There are plenty of lousy schools that don't adhere to the McDojo template, and some McDojos that do pretty well in tournaments.