It was only a matter of time. McDojo vitcim beaten up

[drop bear]

That’s always been one of my favorite martial arts clips.

There’s usually no way to fix stupid. That might have done it for the old guy.

The issue is that people will view that as some stupid guy rather than an issue that can invade any martial arts.

It can really show up with things like unarmed vs knife, or positional defence like bear hug escapes.

In reality someone takes your back you are probably going to get suplexed. But how do you drill that for the self defence crowd?

They don't want escapes that might take years to learn and still only have a small chance of working. And then only if you have a sort of even strength comparison.

You need to pretend a bunch of stuff that does work is going to somehow work, which will loosen their grip, which will make the defence possible. So you are not allowed to just hang on to their back and just sit their bored while they vainly flail around trying to get out. You have to change your attack to reflect reality.

Which creates this insane run of logic that the thing you are actually doing isn't real.

I was super impressed they actually did the escape. Kind of.

I mean still terrible. Still wouldn't work. But it wasn't backwards elbows. So there is that.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Side question. What is is about pretend fighting that develops character in a way that actually learning to fight doesn't?

The "non-combat" aspects of MA training can develop fitness, instill a sense of respect and build self-discipline which benefits everyone who trains in it. "Pretend fighting" can be a part of this.

But I believe "character" is best built when under pressure of some sort. This includes moral character as well as physical. It has to be put to the test. In MA, this test of inner strength is facing an opponent and accepting a degree of risk.

One doesn't have to constantly spar or strive to be an elite fighter, or even especially like fighting, but if one doesn't jump into the fire once in a while, real MA ability will be lacking, and the potential benefits of training will not be fully realized. People can take whatever they want from MA, but like most things, you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

In reality someone takes your back you are probably going to get suplexed.

Once your feet leave the ground.........

My first karate sensei was a state heavyweight wrestling champion and was at least 225 pounds of muscle. I was a teen of about 140 pounds, and he says to me, "let me show you a suplex." The dojo did not have mats. I felt death by being squashed was certain. He got me in a front bearhug, lifted, pivoted - my eyes were closed by that point - and when I opened them again, I was on my back with Sensei smiling over me, kind of in a plank position so his weight wasn't on me. Unhurt, but slightly terrified.

There are grappling situations really hard to get out of, especially if not well trained in that skill. Best for a karate practitioner to avoid them with all his skill.

 

[Gyakuto]

Some people also have a very looong fuse.

It would not occur to me to counter attack someone because of an insult or someone slapping me.

‘Sticks and stones…’ as the saying goes, but a slap would be reciprocated!

 

[Fungus]

‘Sticks and stones…’ as the saying goes, but a slap would be reciprocated!

But I neither tease nor do slapping games.

But if they insist I could consider trading 5 slaps for a rib.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That’s always been one of my favorite martial arts clips.

There’s usually no way to fix stupid. That might have done it for the old guy.

Thing with that guy is he's at least a bit better than the other charlatans. He truly believed his stuff would work (probably his own master was the real charlatan), and put it to the test. Never heard anything about what happened to him afterwards.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I spent a couple years in my early twenties trying to find an effective escape from a bear hug. Myself, my sensei and another student were doing experiments to see what I (a 120 pound 5'7" kid) could pull off against the other student (a 200+pound 6'+ guy) with training and my level of experience. Anything I could not do successfully, without relying on "Oh but he'll be disoriented", we scratched from the SD curriculum and updated/changed.

We tried pretty much every bear hug escape we could find online, some from MMA friends, sambo friends, a judo sensei. None of them could work consistently against the guy. There were a few that I got to work occasionally, but not reliably. Had some others try bear hug as well in case it was just me, with the same result - when he really put it on that was it.

I think we ended up going with that you have to sink as soon as he starts putting it on, and depending on how he does it, either try to edge your knee around his, or if you're able to make some space before he got it tight, try to grab behind his leg near his knee with both arms and just pull up (not explaining the best). But even those weren't exactly great - if you didn't notice/start quick enough there wasn't enough space to do anything, and even if it was a success, both people were falling together.

Also scream like crazy and hope someone's nearby.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I spent a couple years in my early twenties trying to find an effective escape from a bear hug.

Technique is only the 50%. The ability is another 50%. No matter how great a technique is, if the ability is lacking, the technique still won't work. Also, technique/ability is relative and not absolute.

A: If you are good in MA, nobody should be able to escape out of your bear hug.
B: ...
A: If you are good in MA, nobody should be able to apply a bear hug on you.
B: ...
C: Dear master! What will happen if the 1st you have to deal with the 2nd you?
A: ...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Technique is only the 50%. The ability is another 50%. No matter how great a technique is, if the ability is lacking, the technique still won't work. Also, technique/ability is relative and not absolute.

A: If you are good in MA, nobody should be able to escape out of your bear hug.
B: ...
A: If you are good in MA, nobody should be able to apply a bear hug on you.
B: ...
C: Dear master! What will happen if the 1st you have to deal with the 2nd you?
A: ...

That was why we had me doing it. I'm smaller than most attackers, so am small enough that I should have the difficulties that anyone in an actual SD situation will have, size-wise. But also had much more training than most at that point. So the thought was that if I didn't have the ability to put the technique into practice (with time spent training it), the chances that someone coming in with no experience, looking for self defense, would be able to put it into practice would be pretty slim.

So teaching it to them, whether it's an ability issue or technique issue, would be more harmful than helpful.

The goal was to have effective self defense techniques we could teach, not to create a new martial art curriculum. If we were going for a curriculum, our approach would likely be different.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the chances that someone coming in with no experience, looking for self defense, would be able to put it into practice would be pretty slim.

Do you think it's possible to teach someone some self-defense skill without going through the normal process of MA training?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think we ended up going with that you have to sink as soon as he starts putting it on,

Also extend both of your elbows side way with your sinking can be helpful (this can break your opponent's grip).

The issue is when you sink, if your opponent helps you to sink more than you want to, you will be end up on the ground. When you counter your opponent's attack, your opponent can also counter your counter. You need to go many levels deep.

Simple self-defense can only defend the 1st level attack. When your opponent changes, you have to change with him. This is why one still needs to train MA in order to be able to deal with

attack -> counter -> counter to counter -> counter to ... -> ...

 

[drop bear]

Technique is only the 50%. The ability is another 50%. No matter how great a technique is, if the ability is lacking, the technique still won't work. Also, technique/ability is relative and not absolute.

A: If you are good in MA, nobody should be able to escape out of your bear hug.
B: ...
A: If you are good in MA, nobody should be able to apply a bear hug on you.
B: ...
C: Dear master! What will happen if the 1st you have to deal with the 2nd you?
A: ...

 

[Hot Lunch]

Do you think it's possible to teach someone some self-defense skill without going through the normal process of MA training?

I think so. As a matter of fact, this is why I don't think "self defense" is a good motivator to pursue martial arts. Why? Because you're eventually going to get what you came for, and there's no further motive to continue training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think so. As a matter of fact, this is why I don't think "self defense" is a good motivator to pursue martial arts. Why? Because you're eventually going to get what you came for, and there's no further motive to continue training.

The concern of self-defense approach are:

- Not enough breadth.
- There is no depth.

You may learn 1 way to counter a certain attack. If your opponent counters your counter, you may not know what to do next. Also, ability training is another concern. If you don't punch/kick on heavy bag, your punch/kick won't be power enough to hurt your opponent.