What Is A McDojo?

[Dirty Dog]

But the problem with the dismissive attitude toward the McDojo is that it doesn't really matter what type of martial artist these schools produce. There are a great many people that are much more interested in the trappings of the martial arts than they are in the actual techniques. These are the people that happily attend your corner McDojo. If the McDojo wasn't there, these folks would NOT be in a difficult school struggling hard to learn solid technique. That's not what they're after.

As far as I'm concerned, it's far better for these folks to attend the corner McDojo and learn nothing of any real value than it is for them to stay home and watch reality TV on the couch. Also, it's better for them to bring their kids in to learn nothing of any great value than it is to leave the kid sit in front of his video game. Those that really want to learn will figure it out and move on to a better school.

While there may be some truth in what you write, I think that for MOST, you're wrong.

I think the vast majority of people who study MA do so because they want to learn martial arts. Not martial cardio workout. But because they (duh!) lack any experience, they can get sucked in to a school that teaches "nothing of any great value". And because they lack any experience, the fact that what they're learning isn't useful escapes them, for quite a long time. By the time it begins to dawn on them that they're learning garbage (if it ever does, since they may not actually be doing anything that would show them that their "skills" are worthless) they've got a large investment of time and money.
Will they go elsewhere? Maybe. I think they're as likely to become disillusioned with martial arts in general and simply stop training.

If someone wants to offer martial-themed day care, then fine. If they want to offer martial themed cardio workouts, also fine. But when the training is presented as actual martial arts training, then it really ought to be something of value. The typical McDojo isn't likely to offer much of real value.

 

[K-man]

If someone wants to offer martial-themed day care, then fine. If they want to offer martial themed cardio workouts, also fine. But when the training is presented as actual martial arts training, then it really ought to be something of value. The typical McDojo isn't likely to offer much of real value.

I go to the gym and do a circuit type workout with an instructor most days, just an hour but enough to keep the ageing body taut and the blood pumping.

They recently introduced 'Body Combat' classes. The instructors are not boxers or martial artists so they have no real idea of the principles of weight and balance, footwork or core strength. I was invited to take part, but what they do is so far removed from what I teach, I don't want any part of it. Certainly a great cardio work out if that's what your after but nothing to do with self defence.
:asian:

 

[PhotonGuy]

A dojo that allows students to sign up for tests at their own discretion but makes the tests hard and will fail students if they don't perform good enough at the tests to qualify for the next belt, I would not consider such a place a McDojo.

 

[terryl965]

A Mc Donalds on steriods

 

[WaterGal]

While there may be some truth in what you write, I think that for MOST, you're wrong.

I think the vast majority of people who study MA do so because they want to learn martial arts. Not martial cardio workout. But because they (duh!) lack any experience, they can get sucked in to a school that teaches "nothing of any great value". And because they lack any experience, the fact that what they're learning isn't useful escapes them, for quite a long time. By the time it begins to dawn on them that they're learning garbage (if it ever does, since they may not actually be doing anything that would show them that their "skills" are worthless) they've got a large investment of time and money.
Will they go elsewhere? Maybe. I think they're as likely to become disillusioned with martial arts in general and simply stop training.

Agreed, very much. While I don't think that most people that do martial arts want to be Jackie Chan or in the Olympics or be able to kill people with their bare hands or whatever, or think that their kids will/should be that either.... they do want to get something worthwhile out of what they do, and their satisfaction and engagement is much higher if they're challenged and are doing something awesome rather than being mediocre. There's a reason that people pay $100/month to do martial arts, instead of $100/quarter to do rec league basketball or Zumba or whatever - because they're looking for more than just exercise or a social activity.

 

[pgsmith]

While there may be some truth in what you write, I think that for MOST, you're wrong.

I think the vast majority of people who study MA do so because they want to learn martial arts. Not martial cardio workout. But because they (duh!) lack any experience, they can get sucked in to a school that teaches "nothing of any great value". And because they lack any experience, the fact that what they're learning isn't useful escapes them, for quite a long time. By the time it begins to dawn on them that they're learning garbage (if it ever does, since they may not actually be doing anything that would show them that their "skills" are worthless) they've got a large investment of time and money.
Will they go elsewhere? Maybe. I think they're as likely to become disillusioned with martial arts in general and simply stop training.

If someone wants to offer martial-themed day care, then fine. If they want to offer martial themed cardio workouts, also fine. But when the training is presented as actual martial arts training, then it really ought to be something of value. The typical McDojo isn't likely to offer much of real value.

While what you say is technically true, people's idea of just what "martial arts" is can vary greatly. Everyone that is going to a martial arts studio wants to be learning martial arts. Most of them will firmly believe that what they're learning is martial arts. I've been into a large number of the local studios and can tell you that what most of them are learning is in fact martial arts, but only because they say it is. If it were up to me to label it, I would feel better giving it a different name. However, it isn't up to me. Therefore, all of those folks in those schools are happy believing in what they are learning, and why would I wish to disillusion them.
Look up when the next 'karate' tournament happens in your area, and go watch it. They're filled with people having a good time learning ineffectual "martial arts". You can't tell me all those people aren't happy with what they're doing and would really rather learn something effective. Ultimately, they do it because they enjoy it, and they aren't doing something more serious, because they wouldn't enjoy that.

As for me, I'll stick to my boring traditional stuff since that what I enjoy.

Anyway, my point is that the corner karate studio fills a purpose. Not the same purpose as a more serious martial arts dojo, but a purpose none the less. Too many people love to slam them simply to make themselves feel better. I say that if they can stay in business, then good for them.

 

[Kframe]

Problem is, some of these mcdojo don't do anything to ensure their students actually can use the stuff they teach. Balrog forgive me, but the ATA is notable for this. Out side of there odd forms which I see no useful martial application of, they teach what to my outside observer eyes to be fairly standard Tae kwon do. Were they go off the reservation, at least at the ones I visited here in my town, they don't have any meaningful contact in there sparring. So they never really get used to getting hit with force, or more importantly pressure.

Now ill give the ATA some much needed props with regards to the things they are trying to do with there system. Such as adding in what amounts to the Gracie combative's system(white to blue) and Optional mma rules sparring at black belt and higher. I had to look else were for my martial arts after my mma gym closed because they wanted confiscatory rates to train there. I don't have $150 monthly to train, on a 1 year contract.. OF course I realize by there strategic locations that im not the target demographic, they want upper middle class yuppies with more disposable income.

Look, most here have no problem with the very rare mcdojo that actually has good martial instruction. Problem is those are are. In order for places like ATA and other mcdojo to stay in business they have to keep getting new blood and get the old blood out. It becomes more important to get new trainees then to improve and retain the older members. Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank.. That Is a self perpetuating BS wheel imho.

 

[Kframe]

Like I wrote, I read about them a lot but I've never actually met one. I suspect that they're far less common than the impression is. There's so much incredulity over the ones that exist that they get magnified in our consciousness, much like the Road Rage incidents have been.

I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them 9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.

Now ill say this, they were mostly respectfull but some were not. Half way through the class the obese teacher lady stopped and started lecturing about how if they don't take training seriously she wont take them seriously. That testing for a new rank was a privilege not a right and she will not test them. Was kinda shocked about that lecture in a ATA setting.

I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.

 

[K-man]

I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.

Total thread drift, I know, but I use the plastic boards because they are more to a standard than wood and when I was teaching kids I always knew what they could break, not that we ever did lots of breaking.
:s459:

 

[Kframe]

I get that, I called them odd because I had never seen them before. Not that it would have mattered because most of them could not split any of them. They didn't even have good technique, they didn't have any balance and no concept of power generation.

 

[Hyoho]

A dojo that takes any money that is not just for expenses. Dojo is a Japanese word. The Budo Charter set out by the Nippon Budo Renmei clearly defines Budo as non profit.

 

[K-man]

A dojo that takes any money that is not just for expenses. Dojo is a Japanese word. The Budo Charter set out by the Nippon Budo Renmei clearly defines Budo as non profit.

How so?
http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/budochater.html

Profit is not a dirty word, even in Martial Arts. A lot of my friends run successful MA businesses and I can promise you, not one of them run a 'McDojo'.
:asian:

 

[lklawson]

Anyway, my point is that the corner karate studio fills a purpose. Not the same purpose as a more serious martial arts dojo, but a purpose none the less.

They seem to be pretty serious about what they do.

Too many people love to slam them simply to make themselves feel better.

Sometimes even subconsciously by how they describe them such as using the term "serious."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them 9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.

Now ill say this, they were mostly respectfull but some were not. Half way through the class the obese teacher lady stopped and started lecturing about how if they don't take training seriously she wont take them seriously. That testing for a new rank was a privilege not a right and she will not test them. Was kinda shocked about that lecture in a ATA setting.

Fair enough.

I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.

Re-break boards. They're marketed as a way to save money. Supposedly, they offer the same resistance as a regular board but can be put back together again and reused. I remember when they first came out 25 or 30 years ago. I tried them out then. They, indeed, could be used over and over. The ones I tried were actually harder to break. A real board will give resistance and then a sudden give/snap. These offered continual resistance through about 20 or 30 degrees of "bend" before release. They were heavier than wood. And you had to make sure your strike was exactly centered on the "crack" or you'd suffer for it. Even then, the force required to break it was different from wood. It felt nothing like breaking boards. That said, this was a very early example. Hopefully, they've improved.

OTOH, I am not a advocate of board breaking. While I won't call it "pointless," I believe that the majority of breaking is far less impressive and instructive than most of those doing the breaks realize. Around 15 or 20 years ago I was watching a Home Improvement type program and the host was discussing ceiling joists and the reason that the wood grain runs the length. To illustrate his point, he took a standard 1x12 cut board, just like is used in most breaking, placed it between two saw-horses and asked his audience if they thought he could "karate" the board. Then he proceeded to do break it with a badly formed knife-hand. OK, I know; a grown adult and only one board. But still, what did it prove? That his technique was good?

http://www.instructables.com/id/No-Experience-Necessary-Board-Breaking/

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How so?
http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/budochater.html

Profit is not a dirty word, even in Martial Arts. A lot of my friends run successful MA businesses and I can promise you, not one of them run a 'McDojo'.
:asian:

I read the link, and unless it is abbreviated, there is no mention of profit in any way whatsoever.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A dojo that takes any money that is not just for expenses. Dojo is a Japanese word. The Budo Charter set out by the Nippon Budo Renmei clearly defines Budo as non profit.

The profitability of a studio is not a deciding factor in whether people categorize a school as a McDojo. While I've never seen a not for profit studio called a McDojo, it isn't the reason that the term was coined. While there isn't a universal definition, this is one of the common demoninators of people's perception of the term.

And outside of JMA, the Nippon Budo Renmei has no place in defining the nature of a martial arts studio.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them 9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.

I've seen a few non ATA schools that are like this too. I'm personally rather torn on the subject of child black belts. I view a black belt as being a fairly lowly rank; you've learned the basics. But my perception is definitely not universal, majority, or even a large minority in the US.

Now ill say this, they were mostly respectfull but some were not. Half way through the class the obese teacher lady stopped and started lecturing about how if they don't take training seriously she wont take them seriously. That testing for a new rank was a privilege not a right and she will not test them. Was kinda shocked about that lecture in a ATA setting.

Good for her. But can we leave her obesity out it? It really has no bearing on the discussion or on her ability to teach.

I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.

I've never used the rebreakable boards, but from what I understand, they're harder to break than regular boards.

 

[Gnarlie]

.


I've never used the rebreakable boards, but from what I understand, they're harder to break than regular boards.

They can be, depending on the type and age. I have two new ones that I have as yet been unable to break without the aid of a lumphammer.

Gnarlie

 

[K-man]

I read the link, and unless it is abbreviated, there is no mention of profit in any way whatsoever.

Exactly why I posted it.

 

[MJS]

A dojo that allows students to sign up for tests at their own discretion but makes the tests hard and will fail students if they don't perform good enough at the tests to qualify for the next belt, I would not consider such a place a McDojo.

Since you seem to be such a fan of this method, let me ask you this. What do you think about time standards for each rank? In other words, how much time in grade should a student put in before they advance to the next?

And as for this method...well, I still stand by what I've said before...the instructor should have a say in whether or not the student is ready. I would think it'd make more sense to have the inst. determine whether or not the student is ready, that way, the odds of failure tend to be lower, rather than the student assuming they're ready, only to stand up in front, do a poor job, fail, and have to retest. Why not just do it right from the get go?