What Is A McDojo?

[WaterGal]

Because not all martial arts are about being "fit." At least not by Western standards. They're about hurting people and breaking their toys. Often being "fit" can facilitate those goals. Sometimes it's irrelevant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

A person who's got strong muscles and doesn't get winded and is light and fast on their feet is going to have a real advantage in a fight - especially in a sport-style art like the poster was talking about. It's certainly possible for an obese person to be skilled at techniques that can harm someone, but they're going to have a disadvantage over someone in better shape.

Also, just... someone that's exercising even a few hours a week and eating a reasonably healthy diet will not stay obese. They might not look like Bruce Lee, but they won't be 400 lbs. And in a sport-style art, they should be getting in at least a few hours a week of decent exercise. So why are they still obese?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Also, just... someone that's exercising even a few hours a week and eating a reasonably healthy diet will not stay obese. They might not look like Bruce Lee, but they won't be 400 lbs. And in a sport-style art, they should be getting in at least a few hours a week of decent exercise. So why are they still obese?

So in your world, nobody has medical conditions (like the ones mentioned earlier in the thread). What a nice world it must be.

 

[Don Daly]

If a "martial arts school" is selling belts like hamburgers its a McDojo.

 

[Don Daly]

Seriously, If a school tells you, that you can earn a black belt in 1-2 years as long as you pay a certain amount, they are just selling worthless paper certificates and meaningless belts. I also tell people that if the instructor cannot tell you the name of the style and what styles it developed out of, it is probably phony.

 

[WaterGal]

So in your world, nobody has medical conditions (like the ones mentioned earlier in the thread). What a nice world it must be.

There are very, very few medical conditions that will cause someone to gain/not lose weight if they are burning more calories than they take in.

Now, I know personally that some medical conditions will absolutely make it harder to lose weight, as well some medications. I have a medical condition that has required me to take a medication like that since I was 16 years old, and I also have a "big boned" type of body structure. I'm never gonna be super-skinny. But exercise and healthy eating keeps me only a few pounds into the BMI overweight category.

 

[Big Don]

I saw a pick up the other day with an ad on it's back window"
Gymnastics*Dance*Day Care* Rock Wall* Martial Arts* Birthday Parties!
That, is a Mc Dojo...

 

[geezer]

I saw a pick up the other day with an ad on it's back window"
Gymnastics*Dance*Day Care* Rock Wall* Martial Arts* Birthday Parties!
That, is a Mc Dojo...

Exactly. And I'm not sure it's a bad thing at all. For a lot of parents, that is a much better option for what to do with your kid's than using video-games as a babysitter. It's just good to know what you are getting, and more importantly, what you are not getting.

That is to say, you aren't going to get real quality training in gymnastics, rock climbing, or martial arts if any of those things become important to you.

I have a friend who runs a financially successful TKD studio that caters to kids. You could call it a McDojo. Most of his business focuses on the younger kids. He has a "Tiger-belt" program where they run up throu a bunch of colored belts and tape stripes until they get to black. The kids love it, they get a bit fitter and more flexible, learn a little about discipline, respect and working to acheive an objective. All good.

...And legitimate too, in my book. Because a "Tiger black-belt" translates to something like a yellow or orange belt in his adult program. The problem is that the programs for older youth, and especially adults, attract far fewer students. But on the other hand, they learn in a much more serious way. And progress more slowly ...with a different attitude towards belts. My son was held back on his first attempt at testing for blue belt. Afterwards he told me he was a little disappointed, but on the other hand, he'd rather be the best green belt in the class than the worst blue belt. Sounds to me like his Sabunim is teaching him the right values.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A person who's got strong muscles and doesn't get winded and is light and fast on their feet is going to have a real advantage in a fight -

Depends on the nature of the 'fight.' For the most part, self defense in real world encounters is more about mental preparedness than physical preparedness. You need to be able to act without freezing and to make quick decisions under pressure, which are actually unrelated to physical fitness. If you're trying to run from an attacker, this become more of an issue.

The fact is that obese people are like people who are at a healthy weight; some are weaklings and some are incredibly strong, while most are on par with everyone else. So having strong muscles really isn't the issue; the 400 pound instructor might have had very strong muscles. The fact that you couldn't see them doesn't mean that they aren't there. Refering back to Big Van Vader, look at how he moves in the ring (yes, I know pro wrestling is scripted); he's as fast on his feet and as graceful as any of the more ripped and cut guys, and there's no arguing that he's incredibly strong and has good technique for the sport of his choice.

And scripted or no, in their prime, I would put my money on Vader (his real name is Leon White) against most martial arts icons, including Jackie Chan, Donny Yen, Jet Li, Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris.

especially in a sport-style art like the poster was talking about. It's certainly possible for an obese person to be skilled at techniques that can harm someone, but they're going to have a disadvantage over someone in better shape.

Sure, but since we're talking sport here, the person he was talking about was an instructor. Look at boxing coaches. Do you think that Cus D'Amato could have whooped Mike Tyson? Cus made Tyson a champion by helping him to be at his best in the ring, not by being able to win matches himself.

Also, just... someone that's exercising even a few hours a week and eating a reasonably healthy diet will not stay obese. They might not look like Bruce Lee, but they won't be 400 lbs. And in a sport-style art, they should be getting in at least a few hours a week of decent exercise. So why are they still obese?

Depression and stress can wreck you physically. Both are linked to many physical ailments, including obesity. Depressed people sometimes don't make healthy lifestyle choices. Depression is a medical condition, and while it doesn't affect your physical condition directly, it can affect it indirectly, and can do so quite thoroughly.

Then you have eating disorders, which are also medical conditions, which may be induced by other factors, including depression and stress.

Keep in mind the context of this discussion; none of us are stumping for sumo wrestler looks. The response has been to conflating an instructor's personal health issues with McDojo-ism and with an instructor's personal health issues being reason to mistrust their ability to teach.

 

[K-man]

I have a friend who runs a financially successful TKD studio that caters to kids. You could call it a McDojo. Most of his business focuses on the younger kids. He has a "Tiger-belt" program where they run up throu a bunch of colored belts and tape stripes until they get to black. The kids love it, they get a bit fitter and more flexible, learn a little about discipline, respect and working to acheive an objective. All good.

...And legitimate too, in my book. Because a "Tiger black-belt" translates to something like a yellow or orange belt in his adult program. The problem is that the programs for older youth, and especially adults, attract far fewer students. But on the other hand, they learn in a much more serious way. And progress more slowly ...with a different attitude towards belts. My son was held back on his first attempt at testing for blue belt. Afterwards he told me he was a little disappointed, but on the other hand, he'd rather be the best green belt in the class than the worst blue belt. Sounds to me like his Sabunim is teaching him the right values.

Doesn't sound like McDojo to me. Kids are bread and butter to a successful MA business and it sounds like legit training and good attitude to me. I know how much effort it is to teach kids and that is why I no longer do it.
:asian:

 

[lklawson]

Things are looking up, we may qualify for some assistance with the specialized school he has to go to now.. He is only 7(autistic) and got removed permanently from the public school because they just cant deal with someone on the spectrum. Hopefully we get approved for his SSD and that will cover all his special needs therapy and schooling..

I feel for you. Get in contact with a public counselor or the like; someone who knows the system and can help you work through it.

How about tips for newbies. Things inexperienced can look for to tip them off.

I have a few to start it off.

I visited a local karate place, before I found the BBT.

He Claimed to be a high rank in tkd,karate, arinis and some kind of jiujitsu. When I asked him which kinds, he would not tell me which flavor of tkd or karate he was, nor who his instructors were or where he trained. His beginner adult class was 30mins twice aweek, until you hit a certain belt then you could go to the regular class. All the while the tuition was $100 a month on contract. Imagine spending that much time in a beginner class till you get rank up to join the proper class. You cant learn anything in 30 mins twice a week.

That is my contribution to the spotting the mcdojo for newbs idea.

I agree that those would raise some red flags which would indicate caution.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

A person who's got strong muscles and doesn't get winded and is light and fast on their feet is going to have a real advantage in a fight - especially in a sport-style art like the poster was talking about. It's certainly possible for an obese person to be skilled at techniques that can harm someone, but they're going to have a disadvantage over someone in better shape.

I reiterate: not all martial arts are about being "fit." At least not by Western standards. They're about hurting people and breaking their toys. Often being "svelte" or "trim" can facilitate those goals. Sometimes it's irrelevant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Balrog]

Word of mouth is the best seller IMO. I mean think about it...if the standards are that high, why does high pressure sales tactics have to be used?

This.

I dislike "used car" sales tactics. Yes, sales is the lifeblood of the school. Without sales, we don't have income to pay the rent, keep the lights on, etc. But every sales seminar I've ever been to has been all about "SHOW ME THE MONEY!". Don't let the student walk out without signing a contract and writing a check. Yadda, yadda.

I hate this. I have a sales pitch in my school. It's low-key and I do have a closing hook. But it stops there. If they don't want to sign up on a 4 weeks for $49 trail, they're more than likely not gonna sign a long-term agreement. My refusal to play the "after the word no" games is probably why I have a small school. It's also the reason that I have satisfied students with a very low attrition rate. I want people in my school who see the value in what we teach, not just another body in a uniform going through the motions.

 

[Balrog]

I trained at a school in Texas that was a Franchise (red flag for most) with a contract (red flag) and that required you to buy gear through their school (another red flag) that also had any number of items for sale (another red flag) and who had a sales process for new students (gasp red flag) which was considered expensive to a lot of people (everybody man their battle stations this is getting bad) with an instructor with several black belts (*feint* it's just too much).

I have to disagree with many of your "red flags".

1) My school is a licensed school in a world-wide organization. Guess what? That's not evil. That means that I have a tremendous support mechanism for my school.

2) We use contracts. They are good business practice. Besides, I use a billing company to collect my monthly fees and I have to have a contract in place in order for them to provide the service.

3) Yes, the students do have to buy specifically branded gear. It's easiest for the students to buy it through the school. The reason is that we provide insurance coverage for them and the insurance company dictates that only gear that meets their standards is covered.

4) Yes, we have inventory on hand as mentioned above, so therefore we have lots of items for sale. That's also good business practice. If a student needs a new piece of sparring gear, it doesn't help to tell them "I'll order it for you, it'll be here next week". They need it right then and there while sparring class is going on.

5) I have a sales process for new students. Duh. It's a business. Businesses run on processes and procedures. We have a checklist that we follow to make sure that our new students get everything that they are supposed to. It's really embarrassing to have to chase after them and say oops I forgot to give you this or that. That's unprofessional.

6) As far as being expensive....I'm not cheap. I'm a professional martial arts instructor with many years of training (which will never stop) and I expect to be paid accordingly. I do price surveys of the schools around me. I'm not the most expensive, but I'm durn sure not the cheapest. The rate is immaterial. If people see the value in what you teach, they will pay the rate.

7) Several Black Belts, I can't speak to. I've worked my butt off to get a 6th Degree Black Belt in one style; I haven't had time or inclination to go after ranking in another style. I've picked up a little aikido and a little ju-jitsu along the way, enough to show my students some very basic moves and make them more well-rounded in their training, but I don't hold myself out as an expert in those disciplines by any means.

 

[Balrog]

Problem is, some of these mcdojo don't do anything to ensure their students actually can use the stuff they teach. Balrog forgive me, but the ATA is notable for this. Out side of there odd forms which I see no useful martial application of, they teach what to my outside observer eyes to be fairly standard Tae kwon do. Were they go off the reservation, at least at the ones I visited here in my town, they don't have any meaningful contact in there sparring. So they never really get used to getting hit with force, or more importantly pressure.

Guess what? One does not have to try to make hard contact in order for hard contact to happen. :boing1:

Yes, our style is ostensibly non-contact in the tournament sparring area. But you're gonna get hit. That's the nature of the beast. I want my students showing the skill and control to not take their partner's head off, but there isn't a sparring class in the world where someone is not gonna get their bell rung. And it makes them a better sparrer and much more aware of the self-defense aspects of sparring.

And as far as martial applications of the forms.....you apparently haven't looked very hard at them. Yeah, we've got the occasional slow tension move or one-legged stance, but those are to challenge the individual's self-control and self-discipline. The rest of the forms are all about combat. Just look at the first two moves of the White Belt form and you can see that.

Problem is those are are. In order for places like ATA and other mcdojo to stay in business they have to keep getting new blood and get the old blood out. It becomes more important to get new trainees then to improve and retain the older members. Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank.. That Is a self perpetuating BS wheel imho.

That statement is incorrect in so many aspects.

Getting new students is the lifeblood of ANY martial arts school. Maybe 10% of people who start will stick around to make Black Belt. The rest will drop out along the way, for a variety of reasons: financial, they move, they get hurt, etc. But retention is critical as well, because your high ranks are your "leadership core", so to speak.

And sorry for the bluntness but this: "Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank" is pure hogwash. All you have to do to keep learning new things and advancing your rank is to keep training. Period.

 

[Kframe]

And sorry for the bluntness but this: "Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank" is pure hogwash. All you have to do to keep learning new things and advancing your rank is to keep training. Period.

Balrog, I do not mean any disrespect, I know you are quality teacher. My thing is, I have read about the "points" that ATA black belts have to acquire before they can start ranking into the next belt. That it gets progressively harder to get said points. That in the end, you have no choice but to start a school if you want to advance beyond a certain rank. This information is freely available online, it was only a google search away.

With regards to your forms, when I watched the Songham forms I saw lots of repititve hand motions that didn't correspond to any thing I have ever trained. Nothing looked like a grab defense, or a wrist escape or anything. Sure there were blocks and strikes, but there were a lot of extrenious movement. Maybe if you posted a video of a form you could highlight were I am mistaken. How much time, is spent taking the form apart and practicing each movement of the form and its application?

I honestly looked into training at the ATA place here, but I was turned off by the fact that Black belts couldn't kick with decent looking form. These kids just didn't look good as kickers. My former mma coach is a 2nd dan WTF bb and that is what I was judging there kicks by.

Ya I was turned off by the heavy teacher, but what shocked me the most was the kids with bad kicks. Then there is the whole kid black belt thing. I don't know if I could handle being told what to do by a 10 year old black belt...

 

[Kframe]

Here is a example of why the ATA is called Mcdojo. Now ill say this, I applaud them for instituting the mma rules.

Here is a couple of BLACK BELTS, leaders in the ATA and at no time do they show even the slightest attempt at some kind of striking defense. They are just blindly throwing wild punchs and then crashing into each other. Now from the clinch they look decent with a few nice throws.

That is the whole issue though, They are high level students with no semblance of striking defense. How can that even be possible?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Balrog, I do not mean any disrespect, I know you are quality teacher. My thing is, I have read about the "points" that ATA black belts have to acquire before they can start ranking into the next belt. That it gets progressively harder to get said points. That in the end, you have no choice but to start a school if you want to advance beyond a certain rank. This information is freely available online, it was only a google search away.

I don't know what that certain rank is, but let's be realistic; after a certain point, rank shifts from being about personal improvement and more about giving back to/perpetuating the art. Fourth dan and higher are considered instructor level grades in many KMA, which is why it is normative to see fourth dan instructors running their own schools. Fourth dan is (or at least was) the point at which a KKW practitioner could sign off on dan certificates for students.

If all you want to do is show up and train, anything beyond a certain rank is really unnecessary. So I don't see this as problematic. If the ATA essentially designates ranks above a certain level as instructor grades, then that is how they have their system set up. And I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[dancingalone]

7) Several Black Belts, I can't speak to. I've worked my butt off to get a 6th Degree Black Belt in one style; I haven't had time or inclination to go after ranking in another style. I've picked up a little aikido and a little ju-jitsu along the way, enough to show my students some very basic moves and make them more well-rounded in their training, but I don't hold myself out as an expert in those disciplines by any means.

I removed most of this post before quoting it, but I thought was quite solid overall. Thanks.

I just wanted to add a supporting comment to this last note. If you've been training a long time in popular systems (like karate, tkd, aikido, etc.), it's actually quite hard to avoid earning multiple black belts in them. They just seem to show up, even if you're not actively interested in gaining rank, because testing students and awarding them rank is one way in which instructors reward their more dedicated students. It's also a 2 way street, more higher ranked students, so long as they are also knowledgeable and skilled to match their rank, promote their schools and their arts as they teach and set examples for others to follow.

I do agree that if someone is claiming multiple high ranks in some obviously recently created systems that might be something to raise an eyebrow at. But for someone to have a couple of dans in karate and judo? Nah, that happens all the time.

 

[Balrog]

Here is a example of why the ATA is called Mcdojo. Now ill say this, I applaud them for instituting the mma rules.

Here is a couple of BLACK BELTS, leaders in the ATA and at no time do they show even the slightest attempt at some kind of striking defense. They are just blindly throwing wild punchs and then crashing into each other. Now from the clinch they look decent with a few nice throws.

That is the whole issue though, They are high level students with no semblance of striking defense. How can that even be possible?

Sooo...you watch one video, where the guy posting it clearly states that was his first time in competition, and from that you deduce that ATA is a McDojo. Must be nice to have the awesome powers of deduction that you do. As far as "blindly throwing wild punches", I don't know where you saw that in the video. I didn't see anything that looked all that different from what happens at about 2:53 here.

Personally, I'm not into the IMA thing. It's fine for those who want to do it. The emphasis in my school is on Taekwondo. My students will learn a little bit about grappling just to make them more well rounded as a martial artist, but it's not required for promotion. Nor is it required anywhere in the ATA.

To be blunt....it has been my experience that people call ATA a McDojo because they 1) don't know anything about it or 2) they are jealous of ATA's success, or 3) they've washed out of it in the past. I'm not saying we don't have some bad schools; we do. Any large group of people is going to have a few who fall under the left end of the bell curve. Sadly, they tend to be the bozos who get the attention and people then think they represent the whole group.

 

[Balrog]

I don't know what that certain rank is, but let's be realistic; after a certain point, rank shifts from being about personal improvement and more about giving back to/perpetuating the art. Fourth dan and higher are considered instructor level grades in many KMA, which is why it is normative to see fourth dan instructors running their own schools. Fourth dan is (or at least was) the point at which a KKW practitioner could sign off on dan certificates for students.

If all you want to do is show up and train, anything beyond a certain rank is really unnecessary. So I don't see this as problematic. If the ATA essentially designates ranks above a certain level as instructor grades, then that is how they have their system set up. And I see nothing wrong with that.

Our basic concept is that rank carries responsibility. You can be a student up to 2nd Degree. After that, you should become part of leadership. Our founder used to say that you wouldn't have an admiral in charge of a rowboat, and I think he was right.

However, it is quite possible for someone to advance in rank without owning a school. That's NOT to say that they have not become an instructor and aren't actively teaching; quite the opposite. One of the guidelines for promotion is that the person applying to test for higher rank trains and teaches in a school where the chief instructor meets the requirements for the rank. For example, let's say that I have a 3rd Degree training in my school. He has gone through the instructor certification process and has earned the black collar. He's attended training seminars. He's judged at tournaments and at testings and has accumulated the required number of points. He's not a school owner, but he can (and will) get permission to test for the rank because I, as the chief instructor of the school, am that rank or higher.