What exactly defines a modern martial art vs traditional martial art?

[JowGaWolf]

Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age.

fighting words lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age.

You know this for a fact?

That's my experience from the people I know. I can also see that around the world. Just go to any park in China, you can draw your own conclusion.

 

[Steve]

Depends on the type of punch and the context of that punch. Is it with boxing gloves on or off. Is it a jab? How far is the punch from the target? When it comes to having a focus on effectiveness and efficiency, I think TMAs are super focused almost to a fault.

I think my Hung ga punching techniques of creating a fist would be useless if I had to fight with boxing gloves on. Which in that case those traditional techniques (which weren't made to be used with gloves) would probably hurt me more than help me.

Not sure where you got all this. You said something about common punching vs traditional punching. Softer, traditional punching causes injury while normal, common punching doesn't, or something along those lines. You had some kind of punch and some kind of context in mind. So, rather than asking a bunch of questions, could you please just explain what you meant?

 

[Steve]

fighting words lol

Lol. Was that intentionally ironic? If so, bravo. Very witty.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes! I'm a TMA guy, and I do not understand why there should be any difference between "training" and "application".

I have always believed in "Train as I fight". If I always punch from on guard position", that will be the way I train.

I will never train how to punch from my waist.

I don't punch from my waist either.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's my experience from the people I know. I can also see that around the world. Just go to any park in China, you can draw your own conclusion.

I have. My experience tells me different. Depends on the individual. I would never make a claim across the board.

 

[drop bear]

Or simply a regular activity, like working on the heavy bag during every training session. But people don't tend to think of that kind of thing as a ritual or as "traditional". I think they tend to think more of things like special training uniforms and (possibly perceived as excessive) bowing, which things may still have relevance in the home culture in which the system was born.

I guess then anything can be traditional. If I get up in the morning and run 10km every day, that can become a tradition, especially if my son starts to do it with me, and eventually his son with him.

I did mention grey are the first time.

I think the ritual is what separates sumo from wrestling.

You look at tma and you associate belts,uniform,kata and linage.

The focus is on the ritual nature of those martial arts. Your run could become traditional depending on how much focus you place on the ritual of doing it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I did mention grey are the first time.

I think the ritual is what separates sumo from wrestling.

You look at tma and you associate belts,uniform,kata and linage.

The focus is on the ritual nature of those martial arts. Your run could become traditional depending on how much focus you place on the ritual of doing it.

I always just looked at it as training. And training means lots of repetition of techniques and drills that give results. So we just keep doing them.

I've gotten away from systems that use a specific uniform and belts. I find them to be a distraction and not terribly comfortable. But my experience with the traditional martial arts, in the context of the best instructor that I have had, the ritual was minimal. We just kept training. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again...

 

[drop bear]

You trained in kenpo? I myself have never done this technique outside of practicing. I said before to another user that if I have their hand that there are many other and in my opinion better things I can do to my opponent with control of their wrist. I can use many Judo techniques for example or I can simple hang on to it and make them unable to back away from my sidekick to the ribs. The biggest no no of the technique here is the last part I would say. I can see the first part working but why bother when there are safer things? Maybe this technique was designed to fight idiots idk, I didn't make it.

How many arts have you trianed in? As a fellow bear I am interested in your history in the arts.

I have done a few martial arts here and there. Never done kempo. It is not very successful in Australia.

The jjj version is a come along. Where you get the arm between the legs and then walk the guy around. It is just too easy to walk out of if you have any sort of good structure.

 

[drop bear]

I always just looked at it as training. And training means lots of repetition of techniques and drills that give results. So we just keep doing them.

I've gotten away from systems that use a specific uniform and belts. I find them to be a distraction and not terribly comfortable. But my experience with the traditional martial arts, in the context of the best instructor that I have had, the ritual was minimal. We just kept training. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again...

We move into form follows function here. And whether we are repeating what works or trying to make work what has been repeated.

I have had this discussion with people before who believe that because it is in the kata the technique works. Therefore if there is no evidence of the practitioner being able to make it work. Then the practitioner must learn to understand the kata better.

The focus is the ritual not the application.

 

[Ironbear24]

so what about sumo? That is a purely sport/ritual art and has practically no fighting application.

 

[RTKDCMB]

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes! I'm a TMA guy, and I do not understand why there should be any difference between "training" and "application".

I have always believed in "Train as I fight". If I always punch from on guard position", that will be the way I train.

I will never train how to punch from my waist.

We train that way for a specific purpose. That is not how we fight. Don't criticize what you clearly do not understand.

 

[Zeny]

Of course there is a difference between training and application. For example in taijiquan we do the form but when we fight we don't move exactly like in the form.

 

[oaktree]

so what about sumo? That is a purely sport/ritual art and has practically no fighting application.

In daito ryu aikijujutsu it is said some of the moves come from sumo and if so it has some nasty applications

 

[oaktree]

To the Tae-Kwon-Do guys, is TKD a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kenpo guys, is Kenpo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wing Chun guys, is Wing Chun a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kung Fu guys, is Kung Fu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, is BJJ a traditional Martial Art?

To the Aikido guys, is Aikido a traditional Martial Art?

To the Judo guys, is Judo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wrestlers, is Wrestling a traditional Martial Art?

To Capoeira practitioners, is Capoeira a traditional Martial Art?

To the Boxers, is Boxing a traditional Martial Art?

To the Uechi guys, Is Uechi-ryu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Tai-Chi guys, is Tai-Chi a traditional Martial Art?

To everyone on this forum, is YOUR art a traditional Martial Art?

Whatever you train, please chime in. Help us out here. If you train more than one Art, great, but is each Art a traditional Martial Art or what? I mean, who would know more about your art than you?

All you have listed are traditional because they follow a lineage of some sort and have been passed down from one person to another. Now some of them are modern and some of them are not modern.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure where you got all this. You said something about common punching vs traditional punching. Softer, traditional punching causes injury while normal, common punching doesn't, or something along those lines. You had some kind of punch and some kind of context in mind. So, rather than asking a bunch of questions, could you please just explain what you meant?

No problem. I'll first show some boxing jabs and I'll compare it to what I train in.

This first video is the common jab. We can see most people and some professional fighters throw a jab in this. You may also see this technique in some TMAs but it's not a TMA Jab. If you look at kata or kung fu froms, you'll notice this type of jab does not exist.

I would consider these modern jabbing styles. These jabs are done without concern that someone will grab, strike, or attack the joints of the striking hand. It's also is thrown without the concern that someone will sweep the leg. In one of the videos the guy says that the punch starts from the shoulder and to be honest the majority of the people out there throw it that way. In many TMA systems (and some boxing systems that have adopted the same concept.) students are taught that the punch starts from the root. It is also mentioned that the jab is turned over to protect the head. In TMA a we are taught to move the jab out of our way and then strike. Which leads to this video

Here we have modern boxing using the same concepts as some Kung Fu TMAs to deliver the jab. The launch forward motion when jabbing is a concept that predates boxing.

You'll hear him answer the question "What's the difference?" and he'll say "you're putting more power into it." you'll hear him talk about stepping in. (It's really not a step it's a launch. There's a big difference.)

The reason why this last video has a more effective jab than the first 2 videos is because you aren't just using your arms and waist to generate the power. With this method are adding the power of your leg pushing off + plus the mass of the body to add to the power of the punch. I can literally stand in front of a person with my arm extended and deliver a strong strike without cocking my arm back or twisting my waist. An example of this would be Bruce Lee's one inch punch. A person cannot inflict the same damage with jab techniques that were shown in the first 2 videos.

Now back to your original question.

"so, traditional punch is more effective than a modern punch? Is effectiveness then the measure of traditional? What's the takeaway here?" In this specific case of a jab then yes, as you see the person in the 3rd video where a boxer uses a TMA technique to deliver the jab.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't punch from my waist either.

Same here. I don't punch from the waist. I punch from my root.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Same here. I don't punch from the waist. I punch from my root.

Nobody does, as far as I know. It's a common insult used against people who practice martial arts that train beginners to park their fists on their hips and fire from there. As far as I have ever experienced, most karate-type arts teach this. People who never advance beyond beginner status seem to believe that's how we fight; probably because they didn't bother to stick around long enough to learn how foolish this statement is. People who actually do know we don't fight like this still use it because they enjoy being insulting and rude.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I will never train how to punch from my waist.

In that picture you show. The person at the bottom is actually punching from the root and not the waist. If you are doing that technique from the waist then you are missing the power that can be generated from the root. When you do forms you'll gradually feel the connection and learn how to generate power from the root.