What exactly defines a modern martial art vs traditional martial art?

[JowGaWolf]

To the Tae-Kwon-Do guys, is TKD a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kenpo guys, is Kenpo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wing Chun guys, is Wing Chun a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kung Fu guys, is Kung Fu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, is BJJ a traditional Martial Art?

To the Aikido guys, is Aikido a traditional Martial Art?

To the Judo guys, is Judo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wrestlers, is Wrestling a traditional Martial Art?

To Capoeira practitioners, is Capoeira a traditional Martial Art?

To the Boxers, is Boxing a traditional Martial Art?

To the Uechi guys, Is Uechi-ryu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Tai-Chi guys, is Tai-Chi a traditional Martial Art?

To everyone on this forum, is YOUR art a traditional Martial Art?

Whatever you train, please chime in. Help us out here. If you train more than one Art, great, but is each Art a traditional Martial Art or what? I mean, who would know more about your art than you?

Jow Ga Kung Fu, Choy Ga Kung Fu, Hung Ga Kung Fu, and Northern Shaolin are traditional martial arts.

 

[Steve]

Okay. So trying to relate what you're saying to the topic of the thread, Jowgawolf. Are you suggesting that "traditional" vs "modern" punching is whether it is from the root or from the shoulder? So, if a style teaches that punches should generate from the root (could you say core?), then that is a traditional style?

What if I could find a video from a boxing coach that talks about punching power being generated from the legs or from the feet? Wouldn't that be traditional by your definition?

 

[JowGaWolf]

so what about sumo? That is a purely sport/ritual art and has practically no fighting application.

Are you kidding me.. Of course it has some practical fighting applications

Ok. may not.

But seriously it's a traditional sport and not considered as a traditional martial art. Unfortunately many in western societies tend to think that anything that comes out of Japan or China is a martial art. It's gotten better over the years but I still have neighbors who literally think kung fu and karate are the same thing. To be honest I think they refer to any sport where there is kicking and punching to be karate.

 

[Steve]

Are you kidding me.. Of course it has some practical fighting applications

Ok. may not.

But seriously it's a traditional sport and not considered as a traditional martial art. Unfortunately many in western societies tend to think that anything that comes out of Japan or China is a martial art. It's gotten better over the years but I still have neighbors who literally think kung fu and karate are the same thing. To be honest I think they refer to any sport where there is kicking and punching to be karate.

While it may not be kicking and punching, what would preclude it from being a martial art? I am realizing that you and I have a very different definition of the term "martial art." I would categorize any codified, identifiable system that has or has ever had martial application as a martial art. If it has a name, and can be distinguished from other styles that also have names, it's a martial art. Tai chi, TKD, Sumo, Kyudo, western fencing, wrestling, krav maga, boxing... you name it. They're all martial arts. It's like saying "car" or "dog".

Within the category of things that are martial arts, there are some that are combat sports, and others that are not. Some are self defense oriented, others are more spiritual and others are more historical. Most blend several of these and aren't clearly one or another.

So, yeah, I would agree with your neighbors to an extent. Not all martial arts are combat sports, but most (if not all) combat sports are martial arts. Even MMA is becoming codified with its own schools and such. Over the last 10 years, I'd say that MMA has become a distinct style in its own right and would personally have no problem identifying it as a distinct martial arts style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Most of the modern MA guys will still punch on the heavy bag through their old age.

Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age. The following 2 clips show how Taiji guy and Baji guy punch. Please notice that both require about 1 second to "compress and release" before the power is generated.

If you put both of them in boxing ring and fight against boxer, since they won't have that 1 second power generation time, their punches will be just like the boxing punch. I believe the boxer's punch is more effective because they don't depend on that "extra power generation time".

You see the funny thing there, Chan Xiaowang openly admitted he never had a real fight in his life and was wondering if what he did ever got in a fight, if it would actually work. Also take into account that in Chen Xiaowang's day of training Chen they did have matches, that he does not consider fights. Well one day in Northern Europe, much to Chen Xiaowang's surprise, some one in the seminar decided to jump on him, he reacted and the person left in an ambulance, he felt horrible about it, but he at least knew his stuff worked.

As for the Wu vs. White crane clip, I am so tired of this thing being brought out as proof of anything. The problem you have is that there are people still alive that were there. My "Taiji" sifu was one of those people and I will. once again, repeat this...... That fight was billed much like an Ali Fraser fight, everyone was really excited, tickets were sold, many showed up. However no one, in the marital arts community at the time, could understand why the old Wu fought, they all thought the younger Wu should be fighting. But the fight happened and even the Marital artist there thought it was pathetic, My shigung and my shifu among them,. Many people in the audience were upset as well and many wanted their money back...

Can we please stop parading that pathetic show out as proof of anything now....

As for old TMA guys punching the air, obviously you have no idea about how one of my XIngyi sifu's train or how his "Old Chinese guy" sifu trained until the day he died. Also you obviously have no idea how my last Bagua shifu trained and you do not know how my Taiji sifu trained, you obviously do not know how I train and you also have no idea how my Sanda sifu trains either (but you are right he does not hit a heavy bag, he hits trees)... for that matter you don't even know how my first sifu trained or how he trained his students, and he was mostly modern Wushu and competition forms.... if you are saying things like "Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age." and before you ask... no, I will not supply you with videos from YouTube on any of this... You seem to be rather accomplished at finding those yourself.

Also you should know, or I would at least think you should know, many of this "Old TMA guys" are not big on being filmed, especially in applications. And that many today that sell videos, put little differences in these videos so that if they run into someone claiming to have been trained my them that they can tell by looking if it was in person, or by video.

Do not judge all "TMA guys" by a couple videos on Youtube

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, if a style teaches that punches should generate from the root (could you say core?), then that is a traditional style?

One technique doesn't define the style. I just showed a boxing video where a traditional jab was used in a modern fighting system. Some people would say that the jab is a modern jab, and my question to them would be how can that jab be considered a modern jab when it existed before the sport of modern boxing?

If you are trying to determine the difference between Modern Martial Arts vs Traditional Martial arts then you'll have to look at multiple characteristics. There won't be one characteristic that defines a modern martial art vs a traditional martial art.

My original comment about the tradition punch was only about the difference between the technique of Traditional Martial Art Punch and a Modern Punch and not about Traditional Martial Art systems and Modern Martial Arts Systems. It was in reference to Post #50 In my experience, the modern jab hurt, but the Traditional punch actually tore muscle in my abdomen and required less power than you would think. If you asked me if I would take a jab to the stomach from a modern punch vs a jab to the stomach from a traditional punch. I'm going to take modern punch because at least I know it's not going to take me 1 month to heal from that due to my stomach muscles being ripped.

I'm not sure if you saw the video of me getting hit with the traditional punch but you can see the hesitation in my body language about getting hit with it. After experiencing it first hand that hesitation has been multiplied. What I learned is that many of the traditional punching techniques don't have the same brute force impact that you see in a lot of boxing. Many of the traditional punching methods tend to have what I can only describe as a "biting pain" or a internal pain that hurts more on the inside than the outside. In traditional martial arts the punch isn't just about hitting hard. Often times people will learn how to hit hard by not trying to hit hard. In some of the modern fighting system, trainers will always encourage the person to hit hard. In my school, we develop punching power by trying to deliver the most effective punch using the least amount of energy. If I can do a damaging punch by barely hitting you then that power is only going to multiply when I actually hit harder.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In that picture you show. The person at the bottom is actually punching from the root and not the waist. If you are doing that technique from the waist then you are missing the power that can be generated from the root. When you do forms you'll gradually feel the connection and learn how to generate power from the root.

In my art, once we learn how to generate power, it is no longer necessary to park the hands at the hip; it's the way we generate power that matters, not the position of the hands. But it's far easier to understand where the power comes from for a beginner by putting the fists on the obi. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing.

When I adopt a boxer's stance and throw a boxing-type punch, I still generate power the same way. Not too many differences between my jab and a boxer's jab as far as I can tell, except that in general, I don't lift the rear heel. Not a huge difference to see them; and it looks like power generation is similar, but perhaps it is not exactly the same, I don't know, never having trained in boxing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I would say is useless unless you are green arrow or hawk eye and happen to always carry a bow and arrows with you at all times.

Green Arrow versus Hawkeye, now there's a thought.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While it may not be kicking and punching, what would preclude it from being a martial art?

From what I read when looking up historical information about Sumo Wrestling, it has always been sport. It was originally part of a religious ritual which developed into a sport. It was never a fighting technique design to use in war or training for war by soldiers / warriors.

I am realizing that you and I have a very different definition of the term "martial art."

I have no problem with this. I'm just sharing my perspective and not trying to change minds. So I don't mind hearing your perspective as well. The way people understand terms differently, in this case "martial art" will affect their perceptions of it. The Sun Rises every day but not everyone gets the same Sun Rise even though it's the same Sun.

Over the last 10 years, I'd say that MMA has become a distinct style in its own right and would personally have no problem identifying it as a distinct martial arts style.

I don't know how MMA would be defined, since any mixture of any combination of martial art systems. Maybe MMA would be Martial Arts but not a Martial Art System.

I come form a system that mixes 3 different martial art systems. If some one who studied those same 3 systems combined them, would it be Jow Ga even though they didn't study Jow Ga? Or were there certain parts from the 3 systems that were specifically put together for a reason and that's what makes it Jow Ga? I have no idea. I couldn't deny MMA a "Martial Art" status but I would find it difficult to define it as a Martial Art System. MMA is just too broad.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I wanted to try to figure this out, so I punched my uke with a traditional martial arts punch. He collapsed and fell to the floor. When he got up, punched him with a modern martial arts punch. He again collapsed to the floor.

I asked him, when he recovered, which hurt more. He said they were both the same. Looked the same, felt the same, same power, same pain.

Go figure.

Wouldn't he have been weakened slightly after the first punch making the second punch have more effect?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Wouldn't he have been weakened slightly after the first punch making the second punch have more effect?

Sigh.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Most of the modern MA guys will still punch on the heavy bag through their old age.

Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age.

Most out of which guys?

 

[RTKDCMB]

To the Tae-Kwon-Do guys, is TKD a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kenpo guys, is Kenpo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wing Chun guys, is Wing Chun a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kung Fu guys, is Kung Fu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, is BJJ a traditional Martial Art?

To the Aikido guys, is Aikido a traditional Martial Art?

To the Judo guys, is Judo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wrestlers, is Wrestling a traditional Martial Art?

To Capoeira practitioners, is Capoeira a traditional Martial Art?

To the Boxers, is Boxing a traditional Martial Art?

To the Uechi guys, Is Uechi-ryu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Tai-Chi guys, is Tai-Chi a traditional Martial Art?

To everyone on this forum, is YOUR art a traditional Martial Art?

Whatever you train, please chime in. Help us out here. If you train more than one Art, great, but is each Art a traditional Martial Art or what? I mean, who would know more about your art than you?

Depends on how they are trained.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Do not judge all "TMA guys" by a couple videos on Youtube

Gee when has that ever happened?

 

[Xue Sheng]

To the Tae-Kwon-Do guys, is TKD a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kenpo guys, is Kenpo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wing Chun guys, is Wing Chun a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kung Fu guys, is Kung Fu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, is BJJ a traditional Martial Art?

To the Aikido guys, is Aikido a traditional Martial Art?

To the Judo guys, is Judo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wrestlers, is Wrestling a traditional Martial Art?

To Capoeira practitioners, is Capoeira a traditional Martial Art?

To the Boxers, is Boxing a traditional Martial Art?

To the Uechi guys, Is Uechi-ryu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Tai-Chi guys, is Tai-Chi a traditional Martial Art?

To everyone on this forum, is YOUR art a traditional Martial Art?

Whatever you train, please chime in. Help us out here. If you train more than one Art, great, but is each Art a traditional Martial Art or what? I mean, who would know more about your art than you?

Well since you asked
Taijiquan > Traditional
Xingyiquan > Traditional
Wing Chun > Traditional
Baguazhang > Traditional
Sanda > Modern
JKD > Modern

But here is the thing, so much of the "Modern" arts are in or go nicely into the Traditional arts and vice versa. I learned a lot about Xingyiquan in application from JKD. And I found so much of Wing Chun, in JKD. And I found a lot of Sanda's approach was very taiji as it applies to energy and where the force comes from.

This is why I do not really feel that these categories are all that necessary or helpful. They create prejudice and barriers to learning and training IMHO

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not too many differences between my jab and a boxer's jab as far as I can tell, except that in general, I don't lift the rear heel.

The heel on the ground makes all the difference. When we do squats with free weights we push with the heel on the ground. We don't get on our toes to push the weight. The best example would probably be the Clean and Jerk (watch it in slow motion so you can see the feet) where you would push from the heel.

By not lifting the heel you are able to push more force and weight forward in a short burst than you could if you were on your toes. This is one of the rare cases where people can test this out for themselves. Get into your boxers stance and shuffle forward by keeping that heel on ground when you launch forward. Now do the same thing, but this time get lift the rear heel while you are in the boxers stance and try to shuffle forward while the heel is still up.

Now try the exact same movements with a reverse punch. You should be able to feel the difference in the two movements. One method should also feel safe in terms of having to deal with someone who may try to kick or sweep you. If you like I can get a video of this and then you can give it a try.

 

[paitingman]

I think the main difference between modern/traditional; practical/impractical; better/worse; martial arts or artists is the adaptation to MODERN ATHLETICISM.
Traditional methods of training and traditional techniques were probably never intended to deal with the type of fitness we are capable of today. Just by progress in society, nutrition, and exercise science, athletes of today are at a level higher than ever.

Technique trumps strength imo. but only within a certain ratio. My technique will allow for someones strength not to matter. But today people are capable of becoming so athletic that it does matter. The potential gap can be farther than ever before.

When I see guys saying this and that won't work in the ring. I believe it's due to that fighter's/school's traditions and training did not prepare them to face a MODERN, PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE. Not that there techniques are too traditional or are crap.

Modern martial arts is through the perspective of Modern athletics.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the main difference between modern/traditional; practical/impractical; better/worse; martial arts or artists is the adaptation to MODERN ATHLETICISM.
Traditional methods of training and traditional techniques were probably never intended to deal with the type of fitness we are capable of today. Just by progress in society, nutrition, and exercise science, athletes of today are at a level higher than ever.

Technique trumps strength imo. but only within a certain ratio. My technique will allow for someones strength not to matter. But today people are capable of becoming so athletic that it does matter. The potential gap can be farther than ever before.

When I see guys saying this and that won't work in the ring. I believe it's due to that fighter's/school's traditions and training did not prepare them to face a MODERN, PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE. Not that there techniques are too traditional or are crap.

Modern martial arts is through the perspective of Modern athletics.

I think you've hit upon something here. It's a notion that's been rattling around in my brain too, but I wasn't sure how to express it.

While good technique always matters, a modern athlete can rely on that athleticism to override the possibility of having poor or inefficient technique, and still get good effects. A big, strong, athletic fellow can steamroll over less athletic folks, even if his technique isn't as good.

My gut tells me that in the older traditional methods, greater pains are taken to get that technique as correct and as perfect as possible, to an extreme that may seem unnecessarily excessive to some folks. While modern methods also make a premium of good technique, it just seems to me that it isn't taken to the same degree.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The heel on the ground makes all the difference. When we do squats with free weights we push with the heel on the ground. We don't get on our toes to push the weight. The best example would probably be the Clean and Jerk (watch it in slow motion so you can see the feet) where you would push from the heel.

By not lifting the heel you are able to push more force and weight forward in a short burst than you could if you were on your toes. This is one of the rare cases where people can test this out for themselves. Get into your boxers stance and shuffle forward by keeping that heel on ground when you launch forward. Now do the same thing, but this time get lift the rear heel while you are in the boxers stance and try to shuffle forward while the heel is still up.

Now try the exact same movements with a reverse punch. You should be able to feel the difference in the two movements. One method should also feel safe in terms of having to deal with someone who may try to kick or sweep you. If you like I can get a video of this and then you can give it a try.

Ok Ironbear what is it that you don't like. Pushing more weight with your heels planted? Or did you try the example and didn't like? Or me saying that I would et a video showing what I'm talking about?

 

[Ironbear24]

Ok Ironbear what is it that you don't like. Pushing more weight with your heels planted? Or did you try the example and didn't like? Or me saying that I would et a video showing what I'm talking about?

I wasn't aware I hit dislike. I agree with you and I do the same thing when I punch. I am on my phone so maybe I accidentally hit dislike instead of agree.