What exactly defines a modern martial art vs traditional martial art?

[paitingman]

I think you've hit upon something here. It's a notion that's been rattling around in my brain too, but I wasn't sure how to express it.

While good technique always matters, a modern athlete can rely on that athleticism to override the possibility of having poor or inefficient technique, and still get good effects. A big, strong, athletic fellow can steamroll over less athletic folks, even if his technique isn't as good.

My gut tells me that in the older traditional methods, greater pains are taken to get that technique as correct and as perfect as possible, to an extreme that may seem unnecessarily excessive to some folks. While modern methods also make a premium of good technique, it just seems to me that it isn't taken to the same degree.

You hit something I hadn't considered. Perhaps (some) traditional arts have the continuous aim of developing technique almost to a point where there are no other factors. The pursuit of perfect technique.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You hit something I hadn't considered. Perhaps (some) traditional arts have the continuous aim of developing technique almost to a point where there are no other factors. The pursuit of perfect technique.

Saw to old guys in Tiantan park in Beijing doing Changquan and I dabbled in Changquan back then myself. One I tagged as the teacher and he appeared to be in his 80s and the other I tagged as the student, who appeared to be in his late 60s to 70s. The student did a move that involved jumping in the air, doing a 360 degree turn (on a vertical access) and landing in a horse stance with arms straight, and angled down with fists to the side. It was the best I had ever seen, it was amazing. Then the teacher walked over and whispered something to him. The student did it again...and it was better.... it was better than anything I had ever done in Changquan, and at that time I was over 20 years younger than the student. And this was real Changquan, not the modern Wushu version.

So yeah, I think it has more to do with a pursuit of perfection.

 

[geezer]

The heel on the ground makes all the difference. When we do squats with free weights we push with the heel on the ground. We don't get on our toes to push the weight. The best example would probably be the Clean and Jerk (watch it in slow motion so you can see the feet) where you would push from the heel.

By not lifting the heel you are able to push more force and weight forward in a short burst than you could if you were on your toes. This is one of the rare cases where people can test this out for themselves. Get into your boxers stance and shuffle forward by keeping that heel on ground when you launch forward. Now do the same thing, but this time get lift the rear heel while you are in the boxers stance and try to shuffle forward while the heel is still up.

Now try the exact same movements with a reverse punch. You should be able to feel the difference in the two movements. One method should also feel safe in terms of having to deal with someone who may try to kick or sweep you. If you like I can get a video of this and then you can give it a try.

Jow Ga I was going to disagree ...but then I realized that I wasn't sure if I understood you correctly. Are you saying that you can generate more punching power across the board, that is even using boxing style jabs and crosses by keeping your heel down? ...or are you specifically addressing a TMA "reverse" punch?

Regarding reverse punches, you may have a point. Not so with a boxer's "straight" or "cross". And as far as your weight lifting "clean and jerk" example goes, I'd counter with a sprinter's start. You can't propel yourself forward as efficiently if you are flat footed.

My experience with this comes from Latosa Escrima and DTE MMA/Eskrima which have a heavy boxing influence and generate very powerful punches using a raised rear heel.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In that picture you show. The person at the bottom is actually punching from the root and not the waist. If you are doing that technique from the waist then you are missing the power that can be generated from the root. When you do forms you'll gradually feel the connection and learn how to generate power from the root.

There is no argument there that all power generated from

- bottom and up,
- back to front.

I was talking about the hand starting position when punch. When you use your hands to guard your head and when you punch at your opponent, if you have to move your hand to your waist and then punch out, that extra moving path doesn't make sense to me. If 80% of the time that you will punch out from your head guard position, you should train the same way as you will fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is no argument there that all power generated from

- bottom and up,
- back to front.

I was talking about the hand starting position when punch. When you use your hands to guard your head and when you punch at your opponent, if you have to move your hand to your waist and then punch out, that extra moving path doesn't make sense to me. If 80% of the time that you will punch out from your head guard position, you should train the same way as you will fight.

Yeah, I was clear on that. But we don't do it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I found this video and thought it would be interesting since Mayweather shows and talks about some similar things that are found in TMA. Let me know what you think of his upper body movement and the things he said. You may see some flicker of TMA concepts.


On a separate note: Just to kind of highlight the importance of technique regardless of Traditional or Modern.: I don't know how accurate those machines are, but it does appear that technique doubled his punching power

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm sorry but Floyd mayweather is a jerk and I will do nothing to promote his character by watching videos of him. Same feelings I have for a lot of the gracies, not all of them but many.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can't propel yourself forward as efficiently if you are flat footed.

Agree with you 100% there. If your body is not moving forward, your back foot can be flat. If you are moving forward, your back foot are sliding along the ground. IMO, during the

- beginner training stage, your back foot should stay flat on the ground and your body is not moving forward.
- advance training stage, your back foot should slid along the ground and your body is moving forward.

Of course you generate your power from your back foot, but as soon as your body is moving forward, that back foot connection to the ground is no longer important any more.

Here is an example.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is no argument there that all power generated from

- bottom and up,
- back to front.

I was talking about the hand starting position when punch. When you use your hands to guard your head and when you punch at your opponent, if you have to move your hand to your waist and then punch out, that extra moving path doesn't make sense to me. If 80% of the time that you will punch out from your head guard position, you should train the same way as you will fight.

oh ok.. yeah I don't normally throw punches from there. Mainly because of the fighting system I study.

I do however teach to throw punches that way as a way to help students learn to connect their power. The goal is to learn how to, I guess "spin" or throw punches from the twisting of the waist. The closer the fist are to the center of twist from the body the easier and more powerful the jab will be. To me it feels like the arm is being thrown by the waist. The same technique can be done with hands up in a guard position but it's a little more difficult to connect the energy from the wait to the arms. Having the fist low is just easier to get the concept and it gives them something for them to build from. Trying to teach the same concept from the top just confuses students.

But on the flip side of my statement there are a couple of techniques that I have that throws the punch from the waist. It's not done as illustrated in the picture you have but if it lands it's going cause some damage. I'll put it this way. The technique works so well for me that it's my "fail safe" punch. If everything else fails then I know that punch won't. Boxers often throw hooks to the body from a similar position where the fist is chambered on the hip.

I guess it just depends on the style of martial arts that one does that determines how often it's used. For example. I don't remember seeing it in any Tai Chi forms that I've seen. It's definitely not an the one tai chi form I know.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm sorry but Floyd mayweather is a jerk and I will do nothing to promote his character by watching videos of him. Same feelings I have for a lot of the gracies, not all of them but many.

I don't like him either, but he's the only one that showed the technique. Not all martial art masters were nice people, some were really big jerks, but none of that had an effect on the technique that they taught. Don't kill your learning just because you don't like someone.

 

[Flying Crane]

You hit something I hadn't considered. Perhaps (some) traditional arts have the continuous aim of developing technique almost to a point where there are no other factors. The pursuit of perfect technique.

I don't want to suggest or encourage the pursuit of perfect technique to the point that it becomes a disconnected abstraction. There still needs to be a connection to reality and use. But, I do feel there is an expectation that one works toward a higher degree of what good technique means.

I saw a clip of a boxer a while ago. Someone had posted it as an example of driving the punching power from the legs. After reviewing the video, I felt his connection with his legs was not remarkable. It was there, but not outstanding, not compared to the aims and goals of the system that I study.

The boxer was still effective, tho. His technique worked well enough in the context of what he does, and mixed with his fitness and athleticism it gave him some genuine capabilities. But still, compared to what I am used to, I didn't find his technique remarkable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jow Ga I was going to disagree ...but then I realized that I wasn't sure if I understood you correctly. Are you saying that you can generate more punching power across the board, that is even using boxing style jabs and crosses by keeping your heel down? ...or are you specifically addressing a TMA "reverse" punch?

Regarding reverse punches, you may have a point. Not so with a boxer's "straight" or "cross". And as far as your weight lifting "clean and jerk" example goes, I'd counter with a sprinter's start. You can't propel yourself forward as efficiently if you are flat footed.

My experience with this comes from Latosa Escrima and DTE MMA/Eskrima which have a heavy boxing influence and generate very powerful punches using a raised rear heel.

The power generation from pushing flat foot is different and it's something you have to see. That's why I stated I would get a video of this to help make it easier to understand what I'm trying to say and highlight. The specific punches that I was referring to was the reverse punch because that's the one where that pivot on the ball of the foot occurs. You can use the method for a straight jab, but I'm not sure about a cross because a cross is like a jab that comes from the outside-in. I can use forward and diagonal movement using the same concept to throw a hook.

As for the sprinter's start, that forward motion is not the same motion as what I'm talking about when moving forward flat footed. I ran the 110 hurdles and track sprints competitively in my younger days, so I know exactly where you headed. It's the same thing with moving laterally in basketball where flat foot isn't efficient. But if I'm launching my mass into my punch then pushing with that flat foot works better than pushing off the toes like a sprinter or the balls of the feet like a basketball player.

I know it sounds inefficient but in class we scoot around surprisingly quick. We don't move around like that Bajin Fajin video that Kung Fu Wang posted. If Jow Ga foot work was a bird then this would be us because footwork practice for us is just like this lol. just not as cool looking.

 

[Ironbear24]

In a reverse punch you still raise your heel off the ground.

 

[Flying Crane]

In a reverse punch you still raise your heel off the ground.

You see that in Kenpo. Not so much in a lot of other systems.

 

[Ironbear24]

You see that in Kenpo. Not so much in a lot of other systems.

Really? I suppose I haven't noticed. Why do people not raise their heel in a reverse punch? Wouldn't that make it more difficult to distribute the weight you get from pushing off the floor?

 

[Flying Crane]

Really? I suppose I haven't noticed. Why do people not raise their heel in a reverse punch? Wouldn't that make it more difficult to distribute the weight you get from pushing off the floor?

It's more stable and drives the power better, if you have you body-connection done correctly. It's less mobile, but everything is a compromise.

 

[Ironbear24]

It's more stable and drives the power better, if you have you body-connection done correctly. It's less mobile, but everything is a compromise.

I been thinking about uploading another bagwork video because I have improved exceptionally since my last one. I wish it had my foot placement in it though. I am able to generate a lot of power with raising the heel and wanted to compare it to if I had not.

But I guess that would produce inconclusive evidence since I am so accostumed to raising the heel. So naturally inmay be better at punching that way than any other way.

 

[drop bear]

I found this video and thought it would be interesting since Mayweather shows and talks about some similar things that are found in TMA. Let me know what you think of his upper body movement and the things he said. You may see some flicker of TMA concepts.


On a separate note: Just to kind of highlight the importance of technique regardless of Traditional or Modern.: I don't know how accurate those machines are, but it does appear that technique doubled his punching power

I think you will find all martial arts are technique driven.

Definitely not a tma/whatever separation.

 

[drop bear]

so what about sumo? That is a purely sport/ritual art and has practically no fighting application.

Sumo and wrestling. One would be considered traditional one would not.

I think it is the ritual that makes the difference.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sumo and wrestling. One would be considered traditional one would not.

I think it is the ritual that makes the difference.

But what ritual? The handshake before a wrestling match is a ritual. Does that make it traditional?