What Is a Traditional Art?

[drop bear]

Traditional is about the supporting motivations,ethics and rituals. Hence the tradition bit.

Not the system itself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Many times, during discussion of various arts, we see the reference TMA or MMA. In your opinion, what defines a traditional art? Here is a definition of tradition.

For me, a tradition is something that happens at a certain time or something that is done at a certain time, with little if any change. Ex: Every Christmas a family gathers together at the same gathering spot, the same people are there, the same food is prepared, etc.

If we look at #2 in that link I posted, we see:



this reads to me, that nothing changes. Whatever is passed down, is passed from generation to generation, with no changes. This is 'the' way its done, this is 'the' way it has to be done.

Yet, we look at what could be considered a TMA, and we see people making changes. Does this mean that the TMA is no longer traditional, if a more modern concept/idea is added in?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Look at the definition of tradition....

the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

its just that easy.

 

[ShotoNoob]

For traditional Chinese MA, All TCMA systems will have a set of principles to support the whole system. For example, the

- praying mantis system has 8 hard and 12 soft.
- Zimen system has 16 principles.
- Shuai Chiao system has 13 Taibao and 24 Shi.
- Taiji system has 12 principles.
- ...

I don't think MMA uses this approach.

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MMA & TMA both have principes. It's the nature & character of the principles that count, that are defining.
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Where I would definitely agree with you is that principles are more explicit & emphasized more in the TMA systems.
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Matt Thorton, who is all MMA / sport /athletics in his approach, still has express principles. Whether what he states are principles or rhetoric, well we have the same discussion when approaching TMA, for example here @ MT, the discussions about Shotokan karate.
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EDIT: And I would propose that the Chinese TMA's are the most principled in presentation and in training the curriculum. The Chinese TMA's sought to establish and apply principles, over technical emphasis. Going to the other end of the spectrum in conventional MMA training, the primary emphasis is on technique. BJJ is practiced centered around technique. That is one of it's conventional weaknesses compared to the established practice of TMA.

 

[ShotoNoob]

MATT THORTON PRINCIPLES / ALIVENESS
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Matt states his main principle is "aliveness." Aliveness is the main point he says.
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Matt says if that if you have "aliveness" as the key principle, everything else will fall in line perfectly:
A. Attitude;
B Vib of gym, everybody is cool, not acting like a d_ck [who is] trying to hurt the other guy;
C. Everything that you do will be 'functional;'
D. The fact that you will progress in terms of performance, which is the only thing that matters;
E. As opposed to how many certificates you collect or disarms you know in your notebook;
F. Your body is getting better & better at 'delivery' systems;
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All of that falls in line with what you [one] is doing with "alive."

Source: Matt thorton YT vid on Alive Training in Martial Arts.

 

[ShotoNoob]

MATT THORTON ON ALIVENESS.
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And "aliveness" begins on day 1; you don't train for two year start with "dead patterns" then evolve to "aliveness." The training for 2 years or starting with dead patterns is not only unnecessary, it's unproductive Matt says.
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So everything we do {Matt thorton disciples] begins & ends with "aliveness."
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Matt then goes on to state what the general idea of "aliveness" means. He gives three principles "aliveness must have:"\
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1. Timing,
2. Energy,
3. Motion.
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Won't go on to repeat the whole YT vid. I will summarize what this means in practice for Matt thorton method.
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Essentially learn certain basic techniques, i.e. boxing left hook, BJJ grappling maneuver(s). Then live spar with / against resisting opponents. Frequent practice over time to get better & better at applying your basic techniques against the actively resisting opponent.
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IMO, that's it in a nutshell. IMO, pretty much what we see in MMA conventional training. Pretty much what you will see in Greg Jackson's recent article in Black-Belt magazine, with some added complexity of tactical combinations.... The June / July article is titled" "Can MMA Become A Martial Art"--MMA Coach Greg Jackson.

 

[ShotoNoob]

BLACK-BELT MAGAZINE JUNE/ JUL 2015, GUEST EDITORIAL BY PAT JOHNSON, 9TH DAN / BLACK-BELT HALL OF FAME
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Guest Editorial by Pat Johnson, Tang Soo Do practitioner, no mention on front cover....
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He says in Tang Soo Do when he began, great emphasis on basics and forms (hyung, kata), which were then used as an actual foundation for fighting, as well as for everyday self defense.
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Pat then goes on to decry much of the 'modern' & 'conventional' practice @ tournaments, along the lines of MT critics of same here.
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Apparently, the general principled difference between Matt Thorton & Pat Johnson is that besides Pat having a whole bunch of belts / certificates;
Matt Believes in practicing basic technique in simulated fighting right away, while Pat believes in practices of basics isolated from the sparring experience for years, as well as the 'dead pattern" training of forms, hyung, etc., which the latter two Matt rules as "unnecessary" & "unproductive."
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Would love to put these two in the same YT video interview and set some time limit of say 1 hour, with overtime authorized as need be..... For one, that way you wouldn't have to listen to me go on about the 'mysticism' of traditional karate, kata, etc. Let the 2 heavyweights slug it out.....