What exactly defines a modern martial art vs traditional martial art?

[Flying Crane]

Today's traditional methods were cutting edge yesterday. Their techniques and training methodologies were seen to work, so they were kept and passed to the next generations. How many generations need to pass before it deserves the name "traditional"? Well I don't really know.

Are those techniques and methods still relevant today? Often yes and often no. Can they be better than newer methods? Yes. Can they be worse than newer methods? Yes.

I think any traditional system can still be relevant today, but the people doing it need to be honest in their reflection as to whether the training methods still make sense. Maybe the old methods do make sense, but some modern approaches might make more sense. Or vice versa. There might be no clear correct answer, it might vary for each person or each school.

I think teaching a traditional system could be modernized and it would still be the same traditional system as long as the principles are kept in tact. But at the same time, if the traditional methodologies are still viable, there may be no need to modernize it.

I really think there can be a lot of fluidity in the definitions, and in how they approach their training. You could have a modern system using (at least some) traditional methods, or vice versa.

Honestly, I don't see a reason to get too hung up over it.

 

[Ironbear24]

I agree kind of but not on some points. Look at kenpo a lot of it does but be honest there's a lot total rubbish techniques that would never work . Gift in return, unfolding the dark, twirling sacrifice etc, but often you hear people say their kept in because it shows category completion which to me is stupid your training people to defend themselves who cares about all that just show me moves that will save my *** but that's a point for another time but those are still taught because Parker taught them

I see nothing wrong with these techniques at all.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

I see nothing wrong with these techniques at all.

There's loads wrong with those techniques. Gift in return seriously? Your going to take their hand and put it under their crotch and go round behind them. You try that on anyone your getting a knee in the face. Twirling sacrifice pick them up and slam them into a wall seriously? Look I love kenpo as much as anyone but there is a lot of useless techniques that simply would not work but they do teach principles which you can adapt to do your own thing which is what kenpo is about. Now I've trained with a number of high up instructors who say those techniques are bs. Graham Lelliot, lee wedlake they say those techniques are rubbish and I think 2 people who actually studied under Parker would know it. Look kenpo is a great art but it's not perfect and there are things that don't work it's simple as that I know it and I accept it and just keep training it. My former instructor who was a 7th dan said that pretty much all the knife and gun techniques are outdated and dangerous and would not help you. Again you can take elements from them but still realistically you need to keep an open mind on these things

 

[Ironbear24]

Gift in return you are supposed to squeeze the hand, that is enough pain as it is to bring someone to their knees. I know it is not perfect, but I can see them working. I myself would use gift in return because honestly if I already have the guys hand, which is what starts the technique, there are much better things I can do.

Plus twirling sacrifice has a really great full Nelson break, you can't deny that. The lift them up and carry them around like an oversized baby is also awesome and that cannot be denied. I personally call this the bad parenting part of the the technique, carry your kid around and oops. Dropped them.

I also don't see how you could be kneed in the face, because you are not directly in front of them when doing this. You are off sideways and they can try to knee or kick but your arm will be in the way of it. This video shows it off better.

 

[Ironbear24]

To reiterate. By awesome. I mean hilarious.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's loads wrong with those techniques. Gift in return seriously? Your going to take their hand and put it under their crotch and go round behind them. You try that on anyone your getting a knee in the face. Twirling sacrifice pick them up and slam them into a wall seriously? Look I love kenpo as much as anyone but there is a lot of useless techniques that simply would not work but they do teach principles which you can adapt to do your own thing which is what kenpo is about. Now I've trained with a number of high up instructors who say those techniques are bs. Graham Lelliot, lee wedlake they say those techniques are rubbish and I think 2 people who actually studied under Parker would know it. Look kenpo is a great art but it's not perfect and there are things that don't work it's simple as that I know it and I accept it and just keep training it. My former instructor who was a 7th dan said that pretty much all the knife and gun techniques are outdated and dangerous and would not help you. Again you can take elements from them but still realistically you need to keep an open mind on these things

As an ex-Tracy guy, I've felt the same way about a lot of it. A lot of material must have looked good on paper in the design room, but just doesn't pass the BS sniffer in real life. And then there are forms built with that same material. The bad stuff has a way of perpetuating itself.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

Gift in return you are supposed to squeeze the hand, that is enough pain as it is to bring someone to their knees. I know it is not perfect, but I can see them working. I myself would use gift in return because honestly if I already have the guys hand, which is what starts the technique, there are much better things I can do.

Plus twirling sacrifice has a really great full Nelson break, you can't deny that. The lift them up and carry them around like an oversized baby is also awesome and that cannot be denied. I personally call this the bad parenting part of the the technique, carry your kid around and oops. Dropped them.

I also don't see how you could be kneed in the face, because you are not directly in front of them when doing this. You are off sideways and they can try to knee or kick but your arm will be in the way of it. This video shows it off better.

Yes but come on who's going to be able to squeeze your hand so hard you fall to your knees try that squeezing the hand to get them to fall you'll get a punch in the mouth.

I'm not dismissing kenpo I love it and there's loads of great techniques that are brilliant my favourites attacking mace, five swords, detour from doom and heavenly ascent but hey it's nice to see another kenpo person here to talk with how long have you been training and what rank are you?

 

[Kenpoguy123]

As an ex-Tracy guy, I've felt the same way about a lot of it. A lot of material must have looked good on paper in the design room, but just doesn't pass the BS sniffer in real life. And then there are forms built with that same material. The bad stuff has a way of perpetuating itself.

Yeah as I've said I love the art and it absolutely works but it is not perfect and if ed Parker hadn't died when he had I think it would be very different today what with mma being popular but it's a great art and I enjoy so who cares at the end of the day

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maybe the old methods do make sense, but some modern approaches might make more sense.

Among all the modern MA training, there still exist no equivalent replacement for some of the traditional MA training yet.

For example, in wrestling, if you can hold on your opponent's both arms, you can twist him down to the ground.

The following is a traditional MA training method that can help you to develop this kind of "both arms twisting power".

Also if you want to develop a strong "head lock",

this traditional MA pole hanging training is still the best.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah as I've said I love the art and it absolutely works but it is not perfect and if ed Parker hadn't died when he had I think it would be very different today what with mma being popular but it's a great art and I enjoy so who cares at the end of the day

I think somebody got too enthusiastic and kept on creating new SD techs, long after they should have stopped.

 

[Ironbear24]

Yes but come on who's going to be able to squeeze your hand so hard you fall to your knees try that squeezing the hand to get them to fall you'll get a punch in the mouth.

I'm not dismissing kenpo I love it and there's loads of great techniques that are brilliant my favourites attacking mace, five swords, detour from doom and heavenly ascent but hey it's nice to see another kenpo person here to talk with how long have you been training and what rank are you?

Do you doubt the power of chronic masturbation? But seriously it's not that hard, the hand is in general a very weak part of the body with many small bones that make it up. It does take a bit of strength regardless though. I have practiced on and off for 11 years and my current rank is white because I came back to it at a new dojo. My rank before was blue which is by no means a master.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

I think somebody got too enthusiastic and kept on creating new SD techs, long after they should have stopped.

I simply think it was money orientated they need more techniques to keep people learning new stuff to keep them coming to class. Not a criticism but that's what it is but the thing what doesn't work for one does for someone else

 

[Flying Crane]

I simply think it was money orientated they need more techniques to keep people learning new stuff to keep them coming to class. Not a criticism but that's what it is but the thing what doesn't work for one does for someone else

I think we are saying the same thing, two different ways.

You are correct, what does not work for one may still work for others. However, there are limits to that justification. Some things are just extremely low probability. As a teacher, how could one even keep the system "whole"? If something does not work for you, but you keep it with the idea that it might be good for one of your students, you are incapable of successfully teaching it to your student. If it does not work for you, how can you possibly pass it along to a student in a way that he can use it?

 

[oaktree]

In my opinion both of these terms are ridiculous and further divide a community that should have no division in it. However I would like to know because my arts, kenpo karate and Judo have been called both TMA and MMA's.

An art that is over 800 years isn't modern.
Now some people want to apply it to modern times so the approach and some variation May be altered and if altered is it still traditional is a good question. Some traditional arts do everything as it was done 800 years ago and refuse to alter it at all for modern times as they feel they shouldn't.

 

[Xue Sheng]

An art that is over 800 years isn't modern.
Now some people want to apply it to modern times so the approach and some variation May be altered and if altered is it still traditional is a good question. Some traditional arts do everything as it was done 800 years ago and refuse to alter it at all for modern times as they feel they shouldn't.

How do you categorize Aikido, or Judo or Shuaijiao?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

An art that is over 800 years isn't modern.
Now some people want to apply it to modern times so the approach and some variation May be altered and if altered is it still traditional is a good question. Some traditional arts do everything as it was done 800 years ago and refuse to alter it at all for modern times as they feel they shouldn't.

I'm not aware of any existing art which is over 800 years old and still does everything as it was done 800 years ago. I'm aware of a few arts which are claimed to fit into that category, but the actual history doesn't back up those claims.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some traditional arts do everything as it was done 800 years ago and refuse to alter it at all for modern times as they feel they shouldn't.

Agree! Here is a good example. You may use this move to take your opponent down. But at the same time you may give your opponent a chance to choke you to death. It works in "sport" when ground game is not allowed. It's too dangerous to apply otherwise.

IMO, it makes no sense to train any MA skill that only work in "sport" but doesn't work in "combat".

 

[drop bear]

Traditional martial arts has more of a focus on ritual.

There are grey areas of course

 

[oaktree]

How do you categorize Aikido, or Judo or Shuaijiao?

Aikido is gendai modern compare to koryu daito ryu aikijujutsu, judo same compare to its koryu foundation, shuai jiao is said to be over a thousand years old. If an art is made in the 20th century I think it is modern. Doesn't mean it is not traditional. Tradition incorporates meaning passed down from one to another, I have a tradition with my dad even though it is modern.

 

[oaktree]

I'm not aware of any existing art which is over 800 years old and still does everything as it was done 800 years ago. I'm aware of a few arts which are claimed to fit into that category, but the actual history doesn't back up those claims.

Katori shinto ryu kenjutsu is about 600. Chen Taijiquan about 500 years old and mostly these arts haven't change perhaps I should have said 500-600