What can a boxer gain from WC?

[TMA17]

^ right lol

 

[Flying Crane]

Can this statement apply to all MA systems?

Yes

 

[Flying Crane]

The statement "the system isn't limited to its forms" does not mean anything or everything is in the system. Every system is limited just as every person is limited. I don't believe any one system is 'complete'.

In my experience, the system isn’t the techniques. Rather, it is a way to approach the training and the application, regardless of the technique. Some techniques become primary in a system mainly because they embody and illustrate that approach especially well.

Once you understand that, you can pick up a technique from elsewhere and it will have a place within your system, as long as your approach to training and applying it is consistent.

 

[DanT]

I just think context is key. I think everyone would agree on that. To make WC sport combat suitable it has to be somewhat modified IMO. I don’t have enough experience with it to say for sure, but from what I’ve seen across the board really seems to suggest that.

Which is why I now realize how silly the argument or debate is about WC vs MMA/UFC or boxing really is.

If I’m at Target in an aisle WC would serve me well. LOL If I’m in an octagon, starting from outside of WC’s range, of course it will struggle to be effective. If I’m on the street I will do everything I can to avoid a fight.

The techniques don't have to be modified that much, it's the training methods that most schools employ that need to be change. If you want to fight full contact then you're daily routine would be:

30 min heavy bag
1 h technique training
1 h partner training including Chi Sao
1 h sparring
1 h pad work
30 min workout

6 days a week

Compare this to most Wing Chun schools:

15 minute warm up
15 minute forms
15 minute partner drills
15 minute Chi Sao

2 days a week

Is it that complicated to see that most Wing Chun people are out of their league in professional fighting?

 

[Danny T]

In my experience, the system isn’t the techniques. Rather, it is a way to approach the training and the application, regardless of the technique. Some techniques become primary in a system mainly because they embody and illustrate that approach especially well.

Once you understand that, you can pick up a technique from elsewhere and it will have a place within your system, as long as your approach to training and applying it is consistent.

I agree...and my experience is the same. However, I don't have experience in all things martial art, hence "of the systems I have a lot of experience with the statement "the system isn't limited to its forms" is correct."
There may be a or some system/s that are different. I just don't know.

 

[DanT]

Each generation went out and fought and found that certain boxing elements helped them win. These elements were incorporated. In our modern culture boxing has been part of the "consciousness" for several generations. I can assure you that you wouldn't have seen the same evolution of your Wing Chun lineage had it been isolated to central China with no exposure to western culture regardless of how much they were fighting with it. If nothing else, sparring or fighting against opponents using some form of western boxing is going to lead to defenses and movement that resembles western boxing. There is no discounting the influence of western boxing when you start talking about your system having bobbing and weaving and slipping and such. I think we have been seeing an evolution towards a "Wing Chun boxing" to some degree or another for awhile now, whether people recognize and acknowledge it or not. Because, as I said before, it is highly unlikely that Ip Man was doing those things!

The ducking under hook punches and slipping to the outside of straights while applying pak Sao is a fundamental element of the actual application of Yip Man Wing Chun. Those who think that you just stand there with your head still like an open target are the ones who learned from people who never learned properly or who believe that development is the same as application.

 

[DanT]

In terms of fighting...

I don't see anyone winning fights using pure wing chun. Maybe yours, since it seems to incorporate every style and strike ever invented, but certainly not the kind that is recognizable as wing chun.

 

[TMA17]

I was told any slipping or bobbing is not WC as it is not moving forward . Some degree of movement away from forms practice is of course required for real fighting but goal is to use least amount of energy and jam them up. ??

 

[DanT]

I was told any slipping or bobbing is not WC as it is not moving forward . Some degree of movement away from forms practice is of course required for real fighting but goal is to use least amount of energy and jam them up. ??

If you have a punch flying at your face how can you walk forward? You have to move your head slightly to the side while pinning the punching arm and stepping to the outside gate. You can move your head while moving forward / to the outside. You can't be a robot, you have to be dynamic. Once you learn to control your centre, you can move however the hell you want.

 

[TMA17]

That makes sense.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree...and my experience is the same. However, I don't have experience in all things martial art, hence "of the systems I have a lot of experience with the statement "the system isn't limited to its forms" is correct."
There may be a or some system/s that are different. I just don't know.

I don’t disagree

 

[drop bear]

The techniques don't have to be modified that much, it's the training methods that most schools employ that need to be change. If you want to fight full contact then you're daily routine would be:

30 min heavy bag
1 h technique training
1 h partner training including Chi Sao
1 h sparring
1 h pad work
30 min workout

6 days a week

Compare this to most Wing Chun schools:

15 minute warm up
15 minute forms
15 minute partner drills
15 minute Chi Sao

2 days a week

Is it that complicated to see that most Wing Chun people are out of their league in professional fighting?

Well the level of effort would have to even out before we could even look at what system is better.

 

[drop bear]

I was told any slipping or bobbing is not WC as it is not moving forward . Some degree of movement away from forms practice is of course required for real fighting but goal is to use least amount of energy and jam them up. ??

Head off line is important wing chun or not you should be using it.

You are not really there to be lawyer and try to bend your concepts to match reality.

 

[Martial D]

Indeed. If the word Wing Chun wasn't in the titles nobody would recognise any of that(aside from moments of the third video) as Wing Chun. More like amateur kickboxing.

 

[TMA17]

I've been reading some articles and what I've found among different Sifus is that some think the system is fine as is and some think it needs to adapt - (Alan Orr etc.)

Interview with Sifu William Kwok - Wooden Dummy Shop

 

[KPM]

The ducking under hook punches and slipping to the outside of straights while applying pak Sao is a fundamental element of the actual application of Yip Man Wing Chun. Those who think that you just stand there with your head still like an open target are the ones who learned from people who never learned properly or who believe that development is the same as application.

Uh, no. Dan I've been around Wing Chun since 1983. Back when Geezer and I were young whipper-snappers and he was writing some articles for "Inside Kung Fu." And I'm telling you from experience that that was NOT a "fundamental element of the actual application of Yip Man Wing Chun" back then, and that is not even true of many of the various lineages from Ip Man today. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you should consider it suspect. Just like your statements on the other thread that you gave with such conviction about Ip Man being a student of Yuen Kay Shan. Or your prior statements made with such conviction about every Wing Chun lineage saying Wing Chun started as one long form. You need to dial back the "authoritative" statements and comments like "ones who learned from people who never learned properly" or you may soon join the ranks of the "dynamic duo" here in the annals of martialtalk!

 

[Martial D]

Uh, no. Dan I've been around Wing Chun since 1983. Back when Geezer and I were young whipper-snappers and he was writing some articles for "Inside Kung Fu." And I'm telling you from experience that that was NOT a "fundamental element of the actual application of Yip Man Wing Chun" back then, and that is not even true of many of the various lineages from Ip Man today. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you should consider it suspect. Just like your statements on the other thread that you gave with such conviction about Ip Man being a student of Yuen Kay Shan. Or your prior statements made with such conviction about every Wing Chun lineage saying Wing Chun started as one long form. You need to dial back the "authoritative" statements and comments like "ones who learned from people who never learned properly" or you may soon join the ranks of the "dynamic duo" here in the annals of martialtalk!

There is a school of thought (whatever happened to lfj anyway?) that anything and everything can be Wing Chun. Personally I don't get it, and certainly don't agree with it. If a style can't be recognised as such by those that have spent years training in it, one has to wonder why one is describing it as such.

If you see someone doing karate, BJJ, boxing, Mui Thai, tkd, any other style of Kung Fu, Arnis, even aikido in a fight..you can tell what it is just by looking at it. That's what makes them styles. But somehow, you can do anything and everything, and it's still Wing Chun.

 

[drop bear]

I've been reading some articles and what I've found among different Sifus is that some think the system is fine as is and some think it needs to adapt - (Alan Orr etc.)

Interview with Sifu William Kwok - Wooden Dummy Shop

You know if you said boxing or BJJ or MMA needed to adapt. They would look at you like you to just told them water was wet.

I am down in Melbourne at the moment and got some training in. And that was what their instructor said. It is just so important to continually introduce fresh ideas. That is why I do classes when I am away. So I can get that fresh perspective.

 

[Martial D]

Upon watching those videos again, I have changed my mind. How could I not have realized the back mount/rear naked choke were pure wing chun? I guess it's been too many years since my formal wc training, I must have forgotten that part. My mistake. Yip Man was known for strangling the life out of people, shortly before he taught it to Helio Gracie.

 

[DanT]

Indeed. If the word Wing Chun wasn't in the titles nobody would recognise any of that(aside from moments of the third video) as Wing Chun. More like amateur kickboxing.

I can recognize it as Wing Chun because it is Wing Chun. The positions, the use of power, the dropped shoulders, the low elbow power, the footwork, the momentum handeling, are all Wing Chun. This is real Wing Chun, sorry you never learned it.