Differences between JKD and Wing Chun

[coffeerox]

Some that I can think of, based on my observation and criticism from students are:

boxing as a striking system (but modified to WC concepts)
60/40 weight distribution which is same, but they're not rooted. moreover, they do not believe nor know why we are rooted.
technique over concepts
body structure is less emphasized

Let me go over the ones I mentioned. First of all, boxing, one thing I noticed was that they were able to stand toe to toe with the boxer (boxer's not all that good though). Boxing as implemented in their system gave them a good and easy to pick up offensive.

On the rooted concept, I was criticized on it yesterday when I was practicing inch punches. JKD guy's mind was blown about why we are rooted and the concept of dispersing a person's energy to the ground was scary to him. He really doesn't like getting hit so it could have been just him and not the system.

About the body structure. I can see why it's less emphasized for them because even though they practice economy of motion, they are still more 'jumpy' than WC. My impression is that it's because of their striking system, it gives up more energy to be more mobile to deliver their strikes. The JKD guys have gassed out often, the boxer praises himself over his conditioning however no one has realized I haven't gassed out and I know what it feels like to gas out after doing P90x lol

Just a disclaimer, these guys aren't high level or anything, I think they're level 2 from what I can remember but they've been studying for about a year and a half.

 

[geezer]

...Just a disclaimer, these guys aren't high level or anything, I think they're level 2 from what I can remember but they've been studying for about a year and a half.

Coffeerox, sorry, but when we met, I wasn't aware you'd already formally trained! It's good that you could use efficiency and relaxed movements to outlast these guys. If these guys have about a year and a half of JKD, how long do you have in WC (beyond "self-training" with books, dvds and online)?

 

[coffeerox]

Coffeerox, sorry, but when we met, I wasn't aware you'd already formally trained!

I still haven't been formally trained. I think that was a misunderstanding with what I said. My training partners have been formally trained.

It's good that you could use efficiency and relaxed movements to outlast these guys. If these guys have about a year and a half of JKD, how long do you have in WC (beyond "self-training" with books, dvds and online)?

If we count your class that I went to, then 1 day I hope I can clear things out soon so I can go back. I tried Poon Sau with my friend and he didn't know the 'forward intent' part. Is that introduced later, when students are more advanced in Chi Sau, or is it introduced as soon as we do Chi Sau?

 

[MA-Caver]

To me (okay... to me) the differences are that Wing Chun is one of the oldest chinese martial arts still in practice/existence today. It is a formal martial art.

JKD (as Bruce Lee intended) is a mix of various Martial Arts built upon a base martial art. For example WC is my base MA but along my journey I"ve learned TKD, EPAK, Ninjitsu, Street fighting, and a hodge-podge of others.
I still practice forms and techs whenever possible.

Granted I've never been in a formal school for any but I've had friends who were Brown-belts or higher show me (over a period of time... sometimes months and not one night "here lemme show you how to do this cool little move/technique) forms and techniques related to their art(s). Each of those persons understood that I could not afford a regular class on a regular basis. It was through friendship and bartering that I became instructed.

I do hope someday to enter a formal school and work my way up (properly) to a BB. Exactly which art is still up in the air for me.

But I call meself JKDI(nfluenced) if someone were to ask. :asian:

 

[mook jong man]

Some that I can think of, based on my observation and criticism from students are:

boxing as a striking system (but modified to WC concepts)
60/40 weight distribution which is same, but they're not rooted. moreover, they do not believe nor know why we are rooted.
technique over concepts
body structure is less emphasized

Let me go over the ones I mentioned. First of all, boxing, one thing I noticed was that they were able to stand toe to toe with the boxer (boxer's not all that good though). Boxing as implemented in their system gave them a good and easy to pick up offensive.

On the rooted concept, I was criticized on it yesterday when I was practicing inch punches. JKD guy's mind was blown about why we are rooted and the concept of dispersing a person's energy to the ground was scary to him. He really doesn't like getting hit so it could have been just him and not the system.

About the body structure. I can see why it's less emphasized for them because even though they practice economy of motion, they are still more 'jumpy' than WC. My impression is that it's because of their striking system, it gives up more energy to be more mobile to deliver their strikes. The JKD guys have gassed out often, the boxer praises himself over his conditioning however no one has realized I haven't gassed out and I know what it feels like to gas out after doing P90x lol

Just a disclaimer, these guys aren't high level or anything, I think they're level 2 from what I can remember but they've been studying for about a year and a half.

Just to be clear , not all lineages of Wing Chun use a one leg forward stance with weight distribution at 60/40.
Some like the one I am from use 50/50 weight distribution and both feet are equal distance from the attacker.

Also Wing Chun's concepts of conservation of energy and no wasted movement really preclude such things as bouncing around in your stance.

We either just stand still only moving to stay square on to the opponents centreline and wait for them to attack and come into range , or we initiate our own attack from kicking range or just outside of it with an explosive non telegraphed attack that hopefully the opponent won't be able to evade or counter.

 

[coffeerox]

Also Wing Chun's concepts of conservation of energy and no wasted movement really preclude such things as bouncing around in your stance.

I suppose that is why they gassed out so often compared to me. I did call it out though so they know what to work on and one of the guys, my friend, did a lot better at it than the others even though he gassed out too. I think that was b/c he sparred more.

We either just stand still only moving to stay square on to the opponents centreline and wait for them to attack and come into range

So how would you fight a headhunter in this fashion? He jab crosses a lot. It's all he does.

 

[dosk3n]

Jab crosses make no difference to any other way someone fights, we should still just stand there. Its the whole point of sensitivity training.

Fook Sau the jab and you will be able to tell whether the guy is commited or not. If he is then you counter the jab if not you dont as you know something else is on its way.

If he jab hooks a lot then a good combo would be an addition to what I said. Fook Sau the Jab (Greet what comes). As the jab leaves go with it (Follow what goes). Biu Sau the cross while stepping in as the Fook Sau hand is already follwing the retreating jab so use that hand to palm strike.

Since your moving in you will be in close quarters so should be able to fully extend your arm which in most cases would take them to the ground. Especially if they jump around a lot theres a chance there balance would be interrupted as such there legs may not be on ground solid and the amound of distance you can move the top of there body with the palm strike would take them down with loss of balance.

Aslo when MJM says we stand still dont confuse that for not doing anything. For fighters who move a lot for example a boxer who when you hit they duck and dodge to the side. If we punched with say our left hand while stepping in and the boxer ducked to our left (blind side), we fetch the step back to centre and pivot / turn as punching. So we are standing still but also moving at the same time while staying grounded.

Hope that makes sence and helps with head hunters.

 

[mook jong man]

I suppose that is why they gassed out so often compared to me. I did call it out though so they know what to work on and one of the guys, my friend, did a lot better at it than the others even though he gassed out too. I think that was b/c he sparred more.



So how would you fight a headhunter in this fashion? He jab crosses a lot. It's all he does.

First of all get your guard up in front of your face so that there is a barrier there.
Remember a punch to the gut you may still be able to fight on but one to the head and its probably lights out or your eyes will water so much you won't be able to see anyway

Depending on the height of the opponent I always point my guard at his shoulder line , if he has a guard up then his most direct strikes to my head will travel somewhere along this path , which minimises the distance my arms have to move to counter.

I'm assuming in this scenario that I'm only using my hands and not my low kicks to keep him out of his range or pre-empting him by bridging the gap and smashing through his guard with Pak sau or other Chark Jong techniques.

What hand techniques I would use depends on a few variables , the type of force he is giving me ie ( is he committing his body weight or is he just flicking out jabs.)

Also crucial is the stage that I detect his attack if there is a bit of a telegraph and I can read exactly which hand he will punch with , then I may intercept with a Tan Sau on the outside of his arm with my same side arm and then deflect and strike straight through , if his force is too great then I cutdown on his arm with my Tan Sau and clear a path for my other hand to strike , in either case whether I strike through with the Tan Sau or not , the rest of the technique is still the same.

The beauty of attacking with the Tan Sau is even if I misread his intention and he punches with the other hand I will end up either inside his arm and I can strike through from there which is good , or his arm will end up on the outside of my Tan Sau and I can strike through from there or if his force is to strong I can latch his punching arm down.

Or I may use a punch to deflect his straight punch off line , this would be my outside arm to his outside arm , again whether my punch strikes through or not the technique is the same .

After punching and intercepting his arm I latch his arm down , pivot and low palm to the kidneys , then my palm striking arm and my leg on that side rise in unison and I cut down on his arm again and stamp kick the back of his knee joint and punch again with the spare hand.

This is all assuming that I can see what is coming , if he is lightning fast and barely a telegraph like one of the guys I teach then I just point my guard at the general direction of the movement and let my sticking hands skill takeover.

Because somewhere along the line his hands are going to make contact with my guard and from there the course of action will be decided.
Which ever configuration his hands end up in whether they be outside my arm , inside my arm or whatever it doesn't really matter I've been there a thousand times before in Chi Sau and the reflexes will take over.

Other things that will help you are to be very aggressive in stepping in and using your stance to put pressure on his balance , and also don't just counter his attack with one punch , move forward and throw chain punches like a machine gun.

This will put him on the defensive , dissuade him from launching multiple attacks and guard your own centreline and where ever possible use wrist latching to control his arms and prevent him from getting away from you

So you can see that something as simple as a jab and cross is not really simple at all.
There are many variables the type of force , direction of the force , angle of attack etc.
This is the reason we practice sticking hands so that we may deal with these many complexities so that in a millisecond our arms will guide us as to what to do next .

There are some very fast human beings in this world of ours and except for the most flagrant of telegraphed punches you will not be able to stand there thinking " Well if he punches with this arm I use technique A and if he punches with that arm I use technique B".

More likely it will be " Holy **** that was fast , I'm glad I've got my guard up and I'm trained in sticking hands , now lets go to work".

 

[Nhan-Esteban Khuong]

The most obvious difference between Jeet Kune Do and Wing Chun is that Wing Chun is a classical martial art whereas JKD is not.

The next main difference is in the ultimate combative goal. JKD is very clear in that interceptions are regarded as the highest level strategy. I really don't know how Wing Chun approaches this, however I tend to see a lot of passive movements.

This isn't to say the JKDer does not use passive movements, because I see lots of our guys using them. The fact that they use them is more a reflection on their skills and training and not the art, given than you will generally only see higher level JKD men use interceptions consistently.

As for the technical differences that I'm seeing described here, there really isn't any particular way that a JKD man should be moving. If he moves around like a boxer, that's fine. If he remains rooted until footwork is necessary, that's fine too. He might even crash the line and initiate an aggressive committed attack. It's true that we train a lot of elusive footwork, but it is always economical and it does not mean needlessly bouncing about.

In any case, my point is that Bruce Lee taught the same principles to many different people and adapted them to fit the individual. I have training in the Ted Wong, Dan Inosanto, and Bob Bremer lineages. All three of these men had very difference approaches based on their background, physical build, athletic abilities, temperament, etc. Yet, all three of these men used Jeet Kune Do.