What can a boxer gain from WC?

[Gerry Seymour]

Or if everyone winds up pretty much looking the same when they fight then there really is an optimal system for fighting.

I think there's a range of optimal techniques for any given situation. The more narrow the situation, the more narrow the range of techniques. Boxing keeps a fairly narrow situation, so there's a narrower range of techniques. Kickboxing gets a bit broader, and so do the techniques that serve there. MMA is broader yet. And we see each of those situations comes to a fairly common range of most common options, a second range of selectable options that vary among the successful folks, and a smaller range of options that seem to work for some people.

Now, that doesn't meant there's one "right" style. If we consider the range of situations we could find ourselves in outside competitions ("the street"), there are a lot of styles that seem to cover parts of those (I don't think it's possible for any style to cover all of them). And because what we could expect is less predictable (wider range of situations), there's a wide range of suitable systems (and some that appear to be unsuitable).

And some systems cross over reasonably well. With sufficient skill, there are a lot of systems - even specialized ones - that become reasonably suitable for the street. Some (like boxing) fit reasonably well at moderate skill for a lot of the situations the street could present, and are problematic with others, even at higher skill levels (MMA showed this with the ground game).

 

[ShortBridge]

So, based on how this conversation is going, it seems like the question has become: "If a boxer didn't want to box anymore, what would be a good next system for them."

Better question, but I think the answer depends on what out theoretical boxer wants to accomplish.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, based on how this conversation is going, it seems like the question has become: "If a boxer didn't want to box anymore, what would be a good next system for them."

Better question, but I think the answer depends on what out theoretical boxer wants to accomplish.

Agreed. I think it's important to remember the OP's title wasn't "What can boxing gain from WC" but "What can a boxer gain from WC". There are a lot of answers to that, even if it's not stuff "missing" from boxing. There are probably things I could gain from WC that aren't really things missing from my primary art or any of the others I've studied.

 

[Old Judoka]

Well, that's because...

Well, imagine WC is like ketchup. Ketchup make your fries better, but you wouldn't want to eat a plate of just ketchup now would you?

Very good analogy. Up until recently Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tried to remain begrudgingly cousin arts. But one is better for stand up and the other is better on the ground. People from each art are starting to cross train more and more, especially tournament people because they blend well together. The two are like ketchup and mustard. Both together are pretty good on a hot dog, Lol

 

[geezer]

I do not see WC as being mere dressing to be added to another, very different art. But then I do have a bias. WC is my foundation and I have used bits of other arts as dressing on my Ving Tsun. Or, more accurately, I've used other arts to fill in the areas or "ranges" not addressed by WC.

Still, to address the topic, I suppose the best thing a boxer could take from WC would be low, non-telegraphic lead-leg kicks. The so-called "shadowless kick". This can really mess up your opponent's stance and power base, and create openings while you continue to apply your hands.

The problem is that WC's short, low, non-telegraphic kicks are designed to be delivered from a back-weighted WC structure. I can't see them working as intended from a front-weighted boxing stance. You would have to shift weight back to lift the lead leg to kick. When you do that, you: a. telegraph your intent, and b. turn-off your punching power ...if you are using boxing structure to punch.

So, there's the problem with trying to "cherry pick" from a different system. You may have to make major changes to make the stuff work.

 

[Juany118]

Well, that's because...

Well, imagine WC is like ketchup. Ketchup make your fries better, but you wouldn't want to eat a plate of just ketchup now would you?

I think that is a LITTLE extreme because not all WC is the same. As an example, some have zero grappling, others have what amounts to the intermediate level of grappling you may find in Judo and Jujutsu.

TBH I think this may be one of WC's biggest issues, people see WC as a single art, rather than an umbrella under which there are many different styles.

Now this doesn't mean you don't become a better fighter if you also study something else. I think ALL forms of fighting benefit from this. The only difference is specific styles receive different levels of benefit from cross training. As an example I have a friend who is big into MMA, he even competes on a local amateur circuit. He started studying FMA not too long ago (not at my school though) and he said that FMA helped him have a better appreciation of ranging and footwork, because getting brained by a rattan stick is a GREAT incentive, which he then applied to his MMA. That would be what I call "fine tuning" vs say being a boxer who takes up BJJ on the side and now adds a complete new game to their tool box.

 

[Juany118]

Agreed. I think it's important to remember the OP's title wasn't "What can boxing gain from WC" but "What can a boxer gain from WC". There are a lot of answers to that, even if it's not stuff "missing" from boxing. There are probably things I could gain from WC that aren't really things missing from my primary art or any of the others I've studied.

I think this is an important distinction. As I noted you can find that studying another art doesn't give you entirely new tools but helps you fine tune or expand on things already in your tool box. I think trapping is a good example. I have seen good boxers, and MMA fighters, but to my knowledge the trapping isn't trained as specifically as it is in WC. So studying WC would be about the individual boxer expanding and fine-tuning something that already exists to some extent in their tool box.

Similarly boxers often find themselves going from "I am punching" to "I am clinching". With all the time spent in trapping range I think WC couldhelp the boxer expand a bit so they aren't necessarily experiencing such a rapid transition and against someone who is "looking for" the clinch that could be a useful attribute to train. These are but a couple examples but the main thing is that a boxer who acquired these attributes through studying WC wouldn't be changing boxing, they would just have gained attributes that help them to potentially use Boxing as it is in a different way.

 

[TMA17]

Wing Chun Kuen Academy of Western Australia

"M.P.: How has Ving Tsun helped you in the ring and generally speaking, in boxing, considering that Wong Shun Leung's Ving Tsun was born for street fighting and not for sports competitions?



Y.B.L.: Ving Tsun has definitely played a big role in the development of my boxing abilities. It has helped me to enhance my physical expression. In the ring, the concepts are similar. As Wong Shun Leung says “Ving Tsun is a science of combat, the intent is the total incapacitation of an opponent”. After my first loss on a points decision, I have since adopted this philosophy of aiming to finish my opponent and not to leave the decision up to the judges again.


Chi Sau training has influenced the fluidity of my boxing combinations. Of course I am speaking of free flowing, spontaneous chi sau, and not the somewhat stereotypical strikes on often compliant or intimidated students, as seen in countless videos on youtube. Always remember, in the ring, not only is your opponent mobile, but he has also trained as hard as you have. The reality of ring fights is that EVERYONE can take punishment, so you better have more than just techniques.

I try not to concentrate too much on the techniques we learn from VT but rather on the concepts of VT as they relate to fighting. I have incorporated these concepts into my boxing and it has worked. For example: footwork, the angling, the idea of pressuring forward, advancing against oncoming pressure, and so on… but the most important part of the VT training which I cherish and adapt to my boxing is the VT aggression. To elaborate on what I mean, let’s put it this way: What do Boxing and Ving Tsun have in common and what is their number one weapon? My answer is ‘The punch’ and when you make that connection, I say give em’ hell at the sound of the bell.


Having said that, I don't think that WSLVT was created solely for street fighting. I strongly believe that WSLVT is for fighting, PERIOD, whether in the ring or on the streets. I hold the view that "if you can't make it work in the ring, what chance have you got on the streets?”


In Sifu David Peterson’s book “Look Beyond The Pointing Finger”, he mentions that Wong Shun Leung himself said “Make Ving Tsun your slave, never allow Ving Tsun to be your master.” I believe that the basic concepts and applications of VT can be adopted and adapted not only by western boxing, but also by almost any other martial art. As a matter of interest, Mannie de Matos, founder of Hakarac Martial Boxing, working in conjunction with my own teacher, Rolf Clausnitzer, has had remarkable success with his boxers when sparring and competing against conventional boxers. With the right attitude and training, the application of basic VT concepts and techniques can do wonders for any fighter."