What is "good" WC/WT

[Domino]

Your sifu should be able to tell you if your technique is good or not.

I would never go off someone elses form or technique as to whether I am correct.

Last night I got to work with sigung Samuel Kwok, and yes, they will tell you if your technique is right or not

 

[chisauking]

In a perfect world, your teacher (sifu) should tell you whether your techniques (tools) is good or not.

However, we don't live in a perfect world, and many teachers can't apply wing chun themselves, so how can they tell you something they don't know?

 

[chinaboxer]

good wing chun is someone who "chases the opponents center"

bad wing chun is someone who "chases the opponents hands"

 

[chisauking]

That's but one aspect of good wing chun. But....even wing chun rules need to be broken at times. Unless you don't pak-sau?

What a lot of people don't understand is that chasing the centre is a mind concept more than a physical constraint. Sometimes we need to chase the hand in order to control the centre.

 

[geezer]

That's but one aspect of good wing chun. But....even wing chun rules need to be broken at times. Unless you don't pak-sau?

What a lot of people don't understand is that chasing the centre is a mind concept more than a physical constraint. Sometimes we need to chase the hand in order to control the centre.

I like the way you differentiate between overiding concept and specific technique. The technique is a means to an end, or objective. The concept defines the objective. Like the difference between tactics and strategy.

Now as to pak sau... are you really chasing your opponent's hand, or running into it (on centerline) and smacking it out of the way?

 

[Si-Je]

good wing chun is someone who "chases the opponents center"

bad wing chun is someone who "chases the opponents hands"

Forget the opponent's centerline, just keep yours on the opponent so you can defend and attack. Don't "chase" the opponents center, then you'll always end up in the middle where they can defend and attack the same as you... stalemate.

Get OUT of the opponents centerline, keeping yours focused on their body (whether to the side or back or front of them) The opponent's centerline means nothing to you other than you know where it is.

But, centerline theory is all about awareness and positioning of your centerline on the opponent, hopefully while directing their centerline away from you.

But, that's what I used to think to when I first started with centerline thought.

 

[blindsage]

Center and centerline are not the same.

 

[geezer]

Center and centerline are not the same.

The way we use the terms, our centerline tracks the opponent's center. So typically, you launch your punch out along your centerline at a target on your opponent's center. If something gets in the way, then you wedge through and hit, or move the obstruction out of the way, creating an opening. That was my reference to pak-sau.

 

[Poor Uke]

The way we use the terms, our centerline tracks the opponent's center. So typically, you launch your punch out along your centerline at a target on your opponent's center. If something gets in the way, then you wedge through and hit, or move the obstruction out of the way, creating an opening. That was my reference to pak-sau.

Yep thats what I was taught. The attacking line is a straight line bewteen your centre line and their's - chum yung seen?? Sorry my Cantonese is appauling.

 

[futsaowingchun]

A while back I went to an open practice session with some guys from other styles. Watching one of these guys demonstrate how he would approach various situations, I was struck by how differently he defined what was a "good technique". Even at the same close range that we favor, what he used was very unlike WC/WT. He used indirect, complex sequences that often crashed force against force. When it was my turn to share, I would try to achieve the same objective in the simplest, most direct manner I could, borrowing my opponent's force as much as possible. The other guy did not appreciate this approach at all. To him, the WC/WT looked too basic. He felt that his complicated approach was way cooler and more sophisticated... or in short, "better". It would not have been possible to change his mind and still keep the practice session "friendly"... if you get my drift.

On the other hand, these concepts of simplicity, efficiency and borrowing the force are pretty much shared by all the WC/WT practitioners I've met. So while there was no common theoretical base to discuss what was a "good technique" with the guy I described above, it should be possible to have meaningful exchanges with other WC/WT guys.

Now some of what we feel is "best" is largely a matter of lineage, instructor and personal preference, like how your lineage chooses to do the forms. Or, perhaps, how you adapt your stance. Each method has its own rationale, and we could debate "until the cows come home". And get nowhere. Especially since I don't have any cows.

On the other hand we should be able to compare the efficiency and effectiveness of our techniques, based on our common concepts. So whether I do WC, WT, VT, or some other lineage, we should be able to break down what we do and see if we are doing the simplest, most efficient and effective move or not. If you can show me how to get from "A to B" more efficiently, I'll take your technique... because that's also my definition of good Wing Chun (however you spell it). Now I'll get down off my soapbox and ask you guys, "What is your definition of good Wing Chun/Tsun?

My definition of good or efficient WC is to hit the guy as soon as possible in the simplest possible and natural way. One example would be if someone threw a right hand at face at the moment as he commits to the attack I launch a left hand that uses defense and offense in one motion. That's about as simple and effient as you can get.

 

[blindsage]

The way we use the terms, our centerline tracks the opponent's center. So typically, you launch your punch out along your centerline at a target on your opponent's center. If something gets in the way, then you wedge through and hit, or move the obstruction out of the way, creating an opening. That was my reference to pak-sau.

I understand that WC/WT target's the opponent's centerline, but why assume that the centerline defines the center? The center is the center, whether you are in front, next to, or behind. It isn't defined by the 'front'. If I interpret what chinaboxer said right, if you chase the opponent's center, as opposed to just their hands (or just their centerline), you will always be in control. If you pak to get to my centerline but I turn more than you planned, are you going to try to turn me back to get to the centerline, or are you going to go through me anyway, even though my centerline is turned 45 degrees or perpendicular to you? If you chase my center instead of strictly the centerline, you still have me.

 

[chinaboxer]

I understand that WC/WT target's the opponent's centerline, but why assume that the centerline defines the center? The center is the center, whether you are in front, next to, or behind. It isn't defined by the 'front'. If I interpret what chinaboxer said right, if you chase the opponent's center, as opposed to just their hands (or just their centerline), you will always be in control. If you pak to get to my centerline but I turn more than you planned, are you going to try to turn me back to get to the centerline, or are you going to go through me anyway, even though my centerline is turned 45 degrees or perpendicular to you? If you chase my center instead of strictly the centerline, you still have me.

yea, i agree with you, and if i am wrong, then Gary Lam and Hawkins Cheung are teaching me incorrectly, because it comes from their mouths!

a clock is a good analogy, for instance, let's say there's a big clock on the ground and your opponent stands at 12 and you stand at 6 and both are facing each other. yes, we are both facing each other's centerline, but the "center" is actually the half way point between us or the "center" of the clock.

now let's say that you move forward and by doing so, you move the entire clock forward, you have now moved your 6 position forward and now your opponent is standing on the "center" of the clock.

you have now moved the "center" to your opponents position, but you are still facing each other's "centerline", but if you move to 7-8 or 4-5 position on the clock, he is no longer facing your "centerline" but you are still facing the "center" which has become his "center" due to his position.

this is a very very crude example, i know, but hopefully you get the gist of my point. hopefully i didn't just confuse the heck out of everyone..lol..i might have just confused myself! -_o

take care and peace!

 

[geezer]

hopefully i didn't just confuse the heck out of everyone..lol..i might have just confused myself! -_o

I don't know anymore. I've definitely confused the heck out of myself already! I really think we are saying the same thing, but what is so simple to demonstrate is very difficult to convey in words... especially when we may use the same terms to mean different things.

On the other hand Chinaboxer, I really enjoy checking out your videos... when I'm at home, at least. I'm on a break, using a computer at work and videos are blocked.

 

[hunt1]

Lost of interesting posts but all are just superficial answers to the question.

All are focused on the the hands and what the upper body is doing. However the upper body and hands are meaningless.

All humans 2 hands 2 legs. Be it boxer , karate, MT or what ever all have the same possibilities no more no less. A wing chun players hands can not do anything unique. Nothing you do with the hands or how you attack with the hands makes good or bad wing chun.

What makes wing chun different and effective is the engine that powers wing chun. How does wing chun generate power? This is where good wing chun vs bad or real wing chun vs superficial wing chun ie. use of wing chun shapes and stratagies comes into play.

Good wing chun is based on how the lower body is used. How does power move up from the ground through the knees hips and waist. How is the spine utilized to more power though the arms?
It starts in the stance. How do you use the stance. How does the body link and delink? How do you take the basic stance and use it at speed?

As for the center line why make things complicated. There are 2. Yours and your opponents. You want to attack through your opponents while protecting yours via covering,movement and angles. The best place to be is on your oppants back. You are free to attack while you are 100% safe. Everything else is just a change in the circle.

 

[blindsage]

Lost of interesting posts but all are just superficial answers to the question.

All are focused on the the hands and what the upper body is doing.

Umm, no. You didn't really read all of the posts did you?

As for the center line why make things complicated. There are 2. Yours and your opponents. You want to attack through your opponents while protecting yours via covering,movement and angles. The best place to be is on your oppants back. You are free to attack while you are 100% safe. Everything else is just a change in the circle.

You say you want to attack through your opponent's centerline, but the best place to be is your opponent's back? So then how do you attack their centerline?

 

[Poor Uke]

Umm, no. You didn't really read all of the posts did you?


You say you want to attack through your opponent's centerline, but the best place to be is your opponent's back? So then how do you attack their centerline?

Eh? Confused here. There is a centre line down the back as well, you know that right?

I was taught to think of the centre line as a pole going through the centre of your opponent (head to ground) so no matter what the angle you are still presented with a centre line.

 

[hunt1]

Blindsage, Uke answered your question. If you dont like the pole analogy then think of the spine as a plane stretching from back to front through the body . All organs on the front of a corresponding point on the back. You can attack any organ from front back or any other angle.

Please point out the posts that talk about how to use the spine and waist how to use knees and hips to bring power up and out and how to receive energy and ground it. I missed them. The only thing i saw that even touched on it was the post about Chu Seung Tin raising his arm to deflect a karate punch. Nothing at all about how he did it or the training involved or how to do it while moving at spend against a trained opponent. Talk of wing chun stratagies like attacking along the center line etc or different hand s like tan jum pak or punches etc is just superficial stuff and has little to do with making wing chun work as it was designed.

 

[Si-Je]

Centerline Theory....

When you first start out your focusing on YOUR centerline and how to attack and defend from it. face on. Then you learn your opponents centerline at the same time to teach you awareness of their full ability to attack you and defend your strikes from THEIR centerline.

Now, your centerline is all you have to be worried about in the big picture. Your centerline must always be facing your opponent whether your facing your centerline on their side, or back or front.

Now, a larger person or a person that's fighting a person that is about their same size or smaller can easily and effeciently "plow" straight into the opponents centerline from the front.

But, if the opponent is bigger or physically stronger than you this is not effecient for you anymore. to pivot or come from the side slightly to "shear" them away from YOUR centerline.
I.E. I don't want a bigger, stronger, heavier person to be knuckle to knuckle, face to face with me for too long because it's inefficient, and I'll eventually get pummelled.
So you go "outside" their centerline and "over' keeping their centerline away from yours.

That way they only have one arm or leg to attack you with before it's more difficult to respond and cancel out. And you have both.
This is more effecient use of centerline for large people against smaller people too, but unnecessary movement for them.

You always want to go in straight. From YOUR centerline to the opponent. Doesn't matter if what your hitting is their face, front, ribs, kidney, or spine and neck. When your attacking, your centerline is squarely placed upon the part of the opponent that your striking.

Wing Chun is "linear" but it's not as limited by that as it seems. Shortest distance between my fist going from my chest to your head might not always be to your nose. Depends on where your turning or faceing. Don't let the opponent determin and limit what you do from YOUR centerline.
(and if your smaller than them, get the hell out of the way of THEIR centerline. Alot less effort for you and pain.)

Centerline basically means you don't twist and turn your center from the opponent. Who cares where their centerline is? (as long as it's not lined up with mine for too long! lol! That would be a stalemate to the point where the fastest or the strongest wins. not the smartest way to fight.)

I want you in MY centerline. I don't want to be in YOURs for very long.

 

[blindsage]

Poor Uke, and hunt1- thanks for the follow up.

I'm not actually a WC/WT guy myself. I have a little experience and know a little theory, but not extensive. I was responding from more of my Bagua background of understanding the opponent's center, and contrasting that with what I've seen of a lot of WC/WT people I know, and responding somewhat to the way Si-Je responded to chinaboxer.

Poor Uke's analogy of the pole is exactly how I understand center. But Si-Je this notion seems to undermine your criticism of chinaboxer's comment about chasing the center, not the hands. I think this is where the confusion started.

Hunt1 to answer your question, no their was not an in depth discussion of those elements, but your comment that all the discussion before that was only about hands was not correct. See chinaboxer's first post alone.

 

[Si-Je]

Very basically. You worry about where YOU centerline is more than that of the opponents. You don't really want to be "inside" the opponent's centerline for long. This does not give you an advantage or cancel out any of their attacking and defending ability.

You don't have to have your centerline lined up with their centerline to utilize centerline theory. This is basic and what you learn first. But futher on you are only concerned that your centerline is on the opponent so you can strike the opponent and deflect effeciently.