Well, if you want an example of one possibility of mixing boxing and Wing Chun, JKD is it! Just as Martial D suggested!
What can a boxer gain from WC?
- Thread starter TMA17
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Well, if you want an example of one possibility of mixing boxing and Wing Chun, JKD is it! Just as Martial D suggested!
Martial D
Senior Master
Head movement, footwork, long range game, grappling, diversity of punches and angles, slipping, bobbing, weaving, and a realistic guard, just off the top of my head.
Forms / katas are just the same as shadow boxing. Same thing. Forms serve a purpose. When you are in a fight it will not look like a form all the time but it has added value. Seem Adam Chan’s videos on this they are good.
Adam Chan - Are forms useless?
Adam Chan - Are forms useless?
DanT
2nd Black Belt
Head movement? Wing Chun has it.
Footwork? Wing Chun has it.
Long range game? Wing Chun has it.
Grappling? Wing Chun has it.
Diversity of punches? Wing Chun has it.
Slipping, bobbing, weaving? Wing Chun has it.
Realistic guard? Wing Chun has it.
If your Wing Chun is lacking these things then either:
Your Sifu never learned it and so your Wing Chun is missing parts.
Or
You never learned it and so your Wing Chun is missing parts.
Martial D
Senior Master
Head movement? very hard to do effectively off the back foot.
Footwork? yes..WC HAS footwork, but it's not conducive to alive fighting. At least not outside of trapping range.
Long range game? By this I mean the ability to finish fights at range rather than trying to bridge to where you can.
Grappling? Please. WC isn't a grappling art. Go roll with a juijiitsu man or a wrestler and tell me how that goes.
Diversity of punches? Are you really claiming WC measures up to boxing in this regard? Cmon now.
Slipping/bobbing/weaving? To do these things completely breaks your mother line and structure, and require a weight forward posture.
Realistic guard? Center guard requires an unrealistic ability to react to the opponent before they can score. Hands held center is simply bad strategy.
Good points. Here is my .02.
Head movement? very hard to do effectively off the back foot.
I think some WC splits weight 50/50 but I agree there seems to be little to no head movement in WC.
Footwork? yes..WC HAS footwork, but it's not conducive to alive fighting. At least not outside of trapping range.
You may be right, but my Sifu is quick straight forward/left/right. Boxers are lighter on their feet for sure. (some not all)
Long range game? By this I mean the ability to finish fights at range rather than trying to bridge to where you can.
True, you have to get in close with WC. A friend of mine that has studied multiple arts (10 years in Southern Mantis to BJJ/MT) is going to show me some of their punches which I believe are better for longer range. Long range favors boxers.
Grappling? Please. WC isn't a grappling art. Go roll with a juijiitsu man or a wrestler and tell me how that goes.
I have not heard of any WC grappling other than their stance being rooted, along with kicking/knees can help (not stop) being taken down.
Diversity of punches? Are you really claiming WC measures up to boxing in this regard? Cmon now.
WC definitely has limited punches. It does offer elbow strikes. But I agree.
Slipping/bobbing/weaving? To do these things completely breaks your mother line and structure, and require a weight forward posture.
Definitely more of an upright, rigid stance.
Realistic guard? Center guard requires an unrealistic ability to react to the opponent before they can score. Hands held center is simply bad strategy.
I don't know. Again though, in boxing you have gloves on and can take hits. In a street fight you need to often strike first. Palm strikes and elbows are better than breaking your fist.
Head movement? very hard to do effectively off the back foot.
I think some WC splits weight 50/50 but I agree there seems to be little to no head movement in WC.
Footwork? yes..WC HAS footwork, but it's not conducive to alive fighting. At least not outside of trapping range.
You may be right, but my Sifu is quick straight forward/left/right. Boxers are lighter on their feet for sure. (some not all)
Long range game? By this I mean the ability to finish fights at range rather than trying to bridge to where you can.
True, you have to get in close with WC. A friend of mine that has studied multiple arts (10 years in Southern Mantis to BJJ/MT) is going to show me some of their punches which I believe are better for longer range. Long range favors boxers.
Grappling? Please. WC isn't a grappling art. Go roll with a juijiitsu man or a wrestler and tell me how that goes.
I have not heard of any WC grappling other than their stance being rooted, along with kicking/knees can help (not stop) being taken down.
Diversity of punches? Are you really claiming WC measures up to boxing in this regard? Cmon now.
WC definitely has limited punches. It does offer elbow strikes. But I agree.
Slipping/bobbing/weaving? To do these things completely breaks your mother line and structure, and require a weight forward posture.
Definitely more of an upright, rigid stance.
Realistic guard? Center guard requires an unrealistic ability to react to the opponent before they can score. Hands held center is simply bad strategy.
I don't know. Again though, in boxing you have gloves on and can take hits. In a street fight you need to often strike first. Palm strikes and elbows are better than breaking your fist.
Martial D
Senior Master
I'm not referring to taking hits or types of strikes, but where you keep your hands. If you keep them up so your covered, the area you can be hit is a lot smaller. Without even moving you will stop a lot of shots with your arms. With WC center guard, you need to move your hands and arms to meet strikes. Their default position doesn't stop any inbound traffic.
Danny T
Senior Master
I can agree that most of what I have seen has little head movement. We do more body movement than just the head but have some...at least in the wc I train. In the outside game we are freer with our footwork to move about but do tend to lock down in closer. Ground work very little but standing grappling a lot...again in the wc I've been exposed to. Diversity of punches and angle.
Let's see; we have
fisted punches: straight, hook, uppercut, hammer
palm: straight, side, down, up
forearm: outside of the arm, inside of the arm.
elbow strikes: Horizontal forward & backward, Diagonal up & down, Vertical up & down, spinning
shoulder butts: Dropping downward, driving upward,
Head butts: driving upward
We do a lot of angling. Well in the wc I do we do a lot of angling.
Slipping /bobbing/weaving - yeah not very much...well not in the same manner as what is seen in boxing. Slipping we do as a part of the angling I was talking about but again not in the same manner as boxing does.
Realistic guard: realistic in relation to boxing...no. Realistic in relation to wc...yes. Unfortunately many never transition from the learning, drilling phase to full fighting phase. I would even go so far as to say the Mon Sao/Wu Sao position isn't a guard though a lot of wc people use it as a guard.
Martial D
Senior Master
I've never seen hooks used in WC, and the 'uppercut' from the second form is more of a bola punch, but other than that I agree that WC offers a lot of in tight striking options, even moreso than boxing. But I said punching, which most of the strikes you named are not.
- WC has "protect center from inside out".
- Boxing has "protect center from outside in".
I'm sorry Dan. But it sounds like someone in your lineage has already added some boxing for good effect! Because "classic" Wing Chun does not have most of what you just listed. I'm quite certain neither Ip Man or any of his direct students did any slipping, bobbing, weaving or grappling.
In many discussion, people may say that "My style also have ...". When you dig into all the forms that system have, you can't find it. People may say, "It's not in the form, it doesn't mean it's not there." If something is so important in your style, why the forms creator did not include it?
One day a Taiji guy even said that his Taiji system had
- TKD "flying side kick",
- MT "flying knee",
- Judo "hip throw",
- wrestling "single leg".
- ...
Is that possible? I don't think so.
DanT
2nd Black Belt
There is no limitation to footwork in Wing Chun. The only rule I have is: no bouncing, no crossing legs. All footwork in boxing or kickboxing is found in Wing Chun if you're taught properly.
No long range game?
-Front kick
-side Kick
-round Kick
-hook kick
-straight left
-straight right
-Chan Jeong
-backfist
-chop
These are all long range techniques that can be fight finishers.
Wing Chun punches can be delivered from any position in front of the body. You can throw them from your centre line or from your shoulder line, or any where in between. From any of these starting positions, they can land anywhere. This allows for punching diversity.
Wing Chun grappling is for a different purpose than Jiu Jitsu. In Wing Chun we learn how to escape and get to better positions, and get off the ground.
Slipping, bobbing, and weaving are all part of the Wing Chun I learned.
DanT
2nd Black Belt
DanT
2nd Black Belt
Because the system isn't limited to its forms.
Martial D
Senior Master
Hmm. And the Wing Chun you were taught probably makes you a foot taller and can deliver the cure for cancer too I'm sure. My mistake.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Jujitsu has escapes and stand ups. By the way.
Danny T
Senior Master
Ok.
Keep studying there are hooks.
As presented in form. Doesn't mean one has to drop the hand creating a large looping punch.
I did name off more than just punches. The thing about wc or the wc I've been exposed to is most every punch can be more than a punch. But looking just punches we have:
straight, hook, uppercut, hammer.
Boxing has:
Jab (lead straight)
Rear Straight
Hook
Upper cut
Overhand
DanT
2nd Black Belt
I wish. Not sure with how those help in terms of fighting though.
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