What can a boxer gain from WC?

[Martial D]

I can recognize it as Wing Chun because it is Wing Chun. The positions, the use of power, the dropped shoulders, the low elbow power, the footwork, the momentum handeling, are all Wing Chun. This is real Wing Chun, sorry you never learned it.

LOL

 

[DanT]

Upon watching those videos again, I have changed my mind. How could I not have realized the back mount/rear naked choke were pure wing chun? I guess it's been too many years since my formal wc training, I must have forgotten that part. My mistake. Yip Man was known for strangling the life out of people, shortly before he taught it to Helio Gracie.

Their Stand Up game is pure Wing Chun, their ground fighting is BJJ.

 

[Martial D]

Their Stand Up game is pure Wing Chun, their ground fighting is BJJ.

Man, there is no undrinking the Kool aide you've been swillin'

Now excuse me I've got to go do some chin ups that I've decided are real pushups, and then go for a run that is actually a swim. Have a great night!

 

[DanT]

Uh, no. Dan I've been around Wing Chun since 1983. Back when Geezer and I were young whipper-snappers and he was writing some articles for "Inside Kung Fu." And I'm telling you from experience that that was NOT a "fundamental element of the actual application of Yip Man Wing Chun" back then, and that is not even true of many of the various lineages from Ip Man today. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you should consider it suspect. Just like your statements on the other thread that you gave with such conviction about Ip Man being a student of Yuen Kay Shan. Or your prior statements made with such conviction about every Wing Chun lineage saying Wing Chun started as one long form. You need to dial back the "authoritative" statements and comments like "ones who learned from people who never learned properly" or you may soon join the ranks of the "dynamic duo" here in the annals of martialtalk!

I'm not trying to be authoritative, all I can say is what I've experienced through the Wing Chun I learned (both Yip Man and Non Yip Man lineages. I can say however that head movement has its place in Wing Chun, and perhaps I'll make a video describing it some time in the future. In terms of the one long form I actually agree with what you said, which was that it could be that Yik Kam learned all three and just combined it into one long form.

 

[DanT]

Man, there is no undrinking the Kool aide you've been swillin'

Now excuse me I've got to go do some chin ups that I've decided are real pushups, and then go for a run that is actually a swim. Have a great night!

Meh it's been fun, night.

 

[DanT]

There is a school of thought (whatever happened to lfj anyway?) that anything and everything can be Wing Chun. Personally I don't get it, and certainly don't agree with it. If a style can't be recognised as such by those that have spent years training in it, one has to wonder why one is describing it as such.

If you see someone doing karate, BJJ, boxing, Mui Thai, tkd, any other style of Kung Fu, Arnis, even aikido in a fight..you can tell what it is just by looking at it. That's what makes them styles. But somehow, you can do anything and everything, and it's still Wing Chun.

I agree with you that it has to be recognizable. And I also don't think that everything is Wing Chun. Perhaps it's simply in the way I was taught, I don't know.

 

[drop bear]

Upon watching those videos again, I have changed my mind. How could I not have realized the back mount/rear naked choke were pure wing chun? I guess it's been too many years since my formal wc training, I must have forgotten that part. My mistake. Yip Man was known for strangling the life out of people, shortly before he taught it to Helio Gracie.

On the plus side the next guy who wants to complain about me dissing wing chun without having ever really done it. I can tell him it is the same as MMA.

 

[KPM]

Their Stand Up game is pure Wing Chun, their ground fighting is BJJ.

Yeah, just like those clips of Sean Wood's students training for MMA were "pure WSLVT" according to LFJ. You are really stepping up in LFJ's absence!

 

[KPM]

[I'm not trying to be authoritative, all I can say is what I've experienced through the Wing Chun I learned

---Then that is how you should state it in discussions, don't assume it applies to all Wing Chun back to Ip Man.

. I can say however that head movement has its place in Wing Chun,

---No one has disputed that. But what you said was that it was a fundamental part of Wing Chun that other people must have not been taught right if they didn't have it. That sounds very much like someone else that comes here that has a rather unsavory reputation!

In terms of the one long form I actually agree with what you said, which was that it could be that Yik Kam learned all three and just combined it into one long form.

---You only agreed after I pointed out the flaw in what you were saying at least three times. But, to your credit, you did actually listen to reason! But again, I will just caution that whoever is telling you these things lately....that your Wing Chun lineage represents all Wing Chun from Ip Man and no boxing elements have been added, that Ip Man was a student of Yuen Kay Shan, etc........ should be taken with just a bit of skepticism.

 

[wingchun100]

Some things that come to mind when look at both styles: Boxers are light on their feet. WC uses the anchored stance. WC seems to favor elbow strikes and blocks. Boxing has more punches. Center Line theory is not exclusive to WC IMO. Boxing, arguably, has better long range and strikes from multiple angles. WC, arguably, has advantages with blocking. Boxing has advantages in overall movement.

I think a boxer can gain several things: defend and attack simultaneously. Better elbow strikes (being boxers don't use them lol), more direct striking, kicking and anchored stability when close range.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: IN MY OPINION, the rooted (or to use your word "anchored") stance is to be used only when you are in the range where Wing Chun is meant to be used. If we are a boxing ring's distance apart, I wouldn't stand there rooted. I would need to be mobile.

Now here are some other opinions I have, which I have never voiced before, but are to address other things you say.

*Wing Chun does not favor elbows. It does not favor ANY strike...because you can't. Imagine if I favor elbows, so that is predominantly what I train, and I suck at everything else. Well, then I will get creamed in a fight because elbows can be used only in EXTREMELY close range. If I am fighting a guy with arms as long as Brock Lesnar, I don't want to approach him by throwing elbows. I need to bridge the gap first.

*Wing Chun does not favor blocking either, at least not in any lineage I have seen or trained in. We favor HITTING.

*I do not agree that boxing has more punches, as there are many moves in Wing Chun that could be reinterpreted. For example, I think Bong Sao could very easily be converted into something that resembles an "overhand" punch. (If video is needed to explain, then I will gladly post.) I have also seen other techniques that could be viewed as hooks and uppercuts.

That is all for now.

 

[TMA17]

Great points. From my only 2 months of WC I will say that I totally agree with you that I would never be in a rooted stance unless within WC range. I am all for mobility. I’ve always liked boxers, like Ali, that move in unpredictable manner. It’s harder to strike someone where you can’t identify their pattern.

With WC I’m struggling most with the footwork and rooted stance. Mostly bc of my boxing background. I believe there is some value in all arts. I see it in WC but have not been able to apply it yet. It’s too new to me and it feels awkward although getting better.

Someone was nice enough to point out to me the value of “tsui ma” or “toy ma” in WC (horse push), which not all lineages have. Moy Yat does which is where I’m going but that is in form 2.

I was just reading about Bruce Lee’s love for western boxing. It makes sense why he incorporated more than one art into his style.

I’m still debating with myself if WC is the art for me. It’s something I have to invest time and money into to get good at it. Basic boxing, which I already know, I’m already familiar with.

I have 3 free trial classes at Mission MMA in my town to try Muay Thai. That’s an option I may consider too. More physically demanding but I like that there are kicks and elbow strikes in it.

Someone on here used the analogy of WC being a condiment and I can see why. It can be complimentary to other arts.

Boxing is extremely effective and great it’s just a bit boring for me, which is what led me to WC.

 

[wingchun100]

Great points. From my only 2 months of WC I will say that I totally agree with you that I would never be in a rooted stance unless within WC range. I am all for mobility. I’ve always liked boxers, like Ali, that move in unpredictable manner. It’s harder to strike someone where you can’t identify their pattern.

With WC I’m struggling most with the footwork and rooted stance. Mostly bc of my boxing background. I believe there is some value in all arts. I see it in WC but have not been able to apply it yet. It’s too new to me and it feels awkward although getting better.

Someone was nice enough to point out to me the value of “tsui ma” or “toy ma” in WC (horse push), which not all lineages have. Moy Yat does which is where I’m going but that is in form 2.

I was just reading about Bruce Lee’s love for western boxing. It makes sense why he incorporated more than one art into his style.

I’m still debating with myself if WC is the art for me. It’s something I have to invest time and money into to get good at it. Basic boxing, which I already know, I’m already familiar with.

I have 3 free trial classes at Mission MMA in my town to try Muay Thai. That’s an option I may consider too. More physically demanding but I like that there are kicks and elbow strikes in it.

Someone on here used the analogy of WC being a condiment and I can see why. It can be complimentary to other arts.

Boxing is extremely effective and great it’s just a bit boring for me, which is what led me to WC.

If you try that out, let me know what you think. I imagine Muay Thai would be the best art with a "long range game" to blend with WC, much in the same way I think Judo/BJJ is the best grappling art to fit with it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because the system isn't limited to its forms.

Again, the most important principles should be included in the forms so the beginner can train it during the early training stage. Your system can also be defined as a set of "drills". As long as such drills exist, your system has it. Otherwise, your system doesn't have it.

For example, I can say that "outer twist" exists in SC because I have training for both

- solo drill, and
- partner drill.

This way, students don't have to wonder where certain principle may be hidden.

 

[Callen]

Someone on here used the analogy of WC being a condiment and I can see why. It can be complimentary to other arts.

The type of Wing Chun that you are exposed to could be quite different than others’ experiences and understanding of the system. Other people’s opinions on using Wing Chun as a “condiment” should be taken with a grain of salt. It is a concept based system, powered by the individual’s understanding of how it truly works. In my opinion, it is important that you reach your conclusions based on your own personal investigations, discoveries and purpose for training.

Best of luck to you on your journey!

 

[Martial D]

The type of Wing Chun that you are exposed to could be quite different than others’ experiences and understanding of the system. Other people’s opinions on using Wing Chun as a “condiment” should be taken with a grain of salt. It is a concept based system, powered by the individual’s understanding of how it truly works. In my opinion, it is important that you reach your conclusions based on your own personal investigations, discoveries and purpose for training.

Best of luck to you on your journey!

I actually was once in the other camp. I used to be a feirce supporter of WC as a complete system. I lived and breathed it. If I wasn't in school I was practicing. Then if I wasn't at work I was practicing.

When I moved away and couldn't find any WC in my new city I joined a gym that taught BJJ 2 times a week, Arnis 2 times a week, and MT 2 times a week. (MMA was not yet coined as a term, this was in 94 or 95…)

I could only afford 2, and I'd already learned a bit of Arnis from my WC sifu and wasn't really interested in stick fighting, so I went with the other two. I'd heard of BJJ from watching UFC and messing around with the old Gracie instructional video tapes, so that was pretty cool,and I also felt my WC antigrappling could stop BJJ and I wanted to test it. My exposure to MT was limited pretty much to Hollywood. I had no idea what I was getting into there.

So anyway, first night at BJJ, totally murked by everyone. What an eye opener!

First night at MT. Learned a lot, but I also talked up my WC a lot which lead to some after session sparring. Holy f#ck man, I got HUMBLED. That's really the only way to put it. I noticed my boxing I learned from my dad coming out under pressure instead of my WC, but not enough to save me.

Anyhow, I never did abandon my WC. I still consider it my base art, I just think it's more effective to mix it than not to.

And in essence, DanT and I don't seem too far off from each other, it's almost just semantics. He shows a video of mixed skills fighting, which is also what I'm into. He just chooses to call his wc, while I say WC is a tool for fighting rather than fighting itself.

 

[jobo]

I have said it before, and I will say it again: IN MY OPINION, the rooted (or to use your word "anchored") stance is to be used only when you are in the range where Wing Chun is meant to be used. If we are a boxing ring's distance apart, I wouldn't stand there rooted. I would need to be mobile.

Now here are some other opinions I have, which I have never voiced before, but are to address other things you say.

*Wing Chun does not favor elbows. It does not favor ANY strike...because you can't. Imagine if I favor elbows, so that is predominantly what I train, and I suck at everything else. Well, then I will get creamed in a fight because elbows can be used only in EXTREMELY close range. If I am fighting a guy with arms as long as Brock Lesnar, I don't want to approach him by throwing elbows. I need to bridge the gap first.

*Wing Chun does not favor blocking either, at least not in any lineage I have seen or trained in. We favor HITTING.

*I do not agree that boxing has more punches, as there are many moves in Wing Chun that could be reinterpreted. For example, I think Bong Sao could very easily be converted into something that resembles an "overhand" punch. (If video is needed to explain, then I will gladly post.) I have also seen other techniques that could be viewed as hooks and uppercuts.

That is all for now.

that really where i find wing Chun hard to fathom,? If you are at a distance you can be a rooted as you like, it doesn't matter they cant hit you, when they come close, THEN you need to be up on your toes and moving.

that's the very opposite of wing Chun, where,,, when at a distance move around, when they are close enough to hit you, stand there like a Taylors dummy, whilst they punch you, it defies logic, and is a close copy of how drunks tend to fight

 

[Flying Crane]

Again, the most important principles should be included in the forms so the beginner can train it during the early training stage. Your system can also be defined as a set of "drills". As long as such drills exist, your system has it. Otherwise, your system doesn't have it.

For example, I can say that "outer twist" exists in SC because I have training for both

- solo drill, and
- partner drill.

This way, students don't have to wonder where certain principle may be hidden.

I think one is treading on dangerous turf if one tries to tell others what is or is not in their system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I noticed my boxing I learned from my dad coming out under pressure instead of my WC, ...

If you have ever fought golden glove boxing, you will find out that your opponent are all animals. They try to kill you in the ring. Since you try to knock down your opponent ASAP, you then add "body rotation" into your punch, and you start to violate the WC principle.

The lacking of "body rotation" in WC bother me more than anything else.

 

[DanT]

that really where i find wing Chun hard to fathom,? If you are at a distance you can be a rooted as you like, it doesn't matter they cant hit you, when they come close, THEN you need to be up on your toes and moving.

that's the very opposite of wing Chun, where,,, when at a distance move around, when they are close enough to hit you, stand there like a Taylors dummy, whilst they punch you, it defies logic, and is a close copy of how drunks tend to fight

From my experience, it's not that you stay still like a statue when the opponent is close, it's that when you excecute a technique you need to launch it from the ground up, hence the need for a root.

 

[DanT]

If you have ever fought golden glove boxing, you will find out that your opponent are all animals. They try to kill you in the ring. Since you try to knock down your opponent ASAP, you then add "body rotation" into your punch, and you start to violate the WC principle.

The lacking of "body rotation" in WC bother me more than anything else.

In the Wing Chun I learned, you rotate the body when you punch, namely the hip, especially when punching from a distance. It's a slightly different mechanic than boxing though.