Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

[Matt Stone]

A couple of notes (sorry to chime in so late in the discussion)...

1) Anyone claiming to be the head anything on a military installation should immediately send up red flags... The military is simply not allowed to endorse, nor appear to endorse, any one particular person, their methods, etc. The military is a branch of the Government, and the Government cannot, because of a host of reasons embodied in federal law, appear to favor one "something" over any other "something." This is why federal contracts are handed out to multiple manufacturers, service providers, etc. When someone teaches martial arts on a military installation, they have been contracted by the installation's contracting office (be it sports, kids' programs, etc.) to provide services in exchange for a fee. Typically for the Army, these instructors are contracted through the fitness center to provide classes as an adjunct to fitness development. I've taught at Fort Riley (Kansas), Camp Zama (Japan), and Fort Lewis (Washington), and have never ever heard of anyone being the "head instructor" for an installation. There simply aren't enough coordinated classes (even when there are multiple classes, each class is sovereign unto its own instructor; they aren't coordinated under a "head instructor") to require one "head" instructor to supervise them all. Instructors are supervised by the staff of the facility they are contracted to work in/out of (e.g. the gym, the recreation center, etc.).

2) Regrettably, in the case of Mr. Castro (mentioned above), much of his recognition stems from organizations that have been identified as being, at the very least, questionable in intent if not out and out belt/rank mills. I have never been witness to "hands on" demonstrations of Mr. Castro's skills. I have seen him perform kata, and I assisted him in providing instruction to the military police on Camp Zama at a one day seminar. Out of politeness (and a personal policy to stay clear of sniping at specific individuals and instead addressing larger, more generalized topics; I've already earned one set of internet stalkers threatening my life because I questioned a specific individual, I have no need of earning more) I refrain from making public commentary regarding my opinions of his technique. Suffice it to say that I was not interested in joining his organization nor his class, and instead pursued training elsewhere under other instructors.

I have met several people laying claim to extremely high rank in multiple arts. In 100% of those meetings, I have had serious doubts as to the authenticity of the ranks, and have had occasion to question the degree of their skill as well. I make a point not to discuss my rank (it doesn't matter anyway), and instead focus not on my opponent/training partner's rank but rather their skills and abilities as demonstrated on the mat. That's the only real test anyway, right?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Matt Stone]

It seems that all of the head of family sokeships are looked down upon by many. Some of the reasons were because of the improper usage of the word soke and other reasons were about bogus rank.

Not to mention the fact that most of them are "granted" to people from martial artists not even remotely involved nor affiliated with the art in question, and then typically only after certain sums of money have been transferred to the soke-wannabe and the granting organization...

It seemed to me that it was being implied that all 10th degrees in the west were bogas. Is that what everyone beleives? Why?

Not all, certainly, but most. As an example, Hatsumi's 10th dans, be they residing in Japan or elsewhere, are for the most part just over-ranked students of much more junior status... He has admitted that he promoted them to "shame" them into training harder. Too bad he didn't bargain on good old fashioned American laziness... Once they had the rank, who needed to train harder???

I my self know several Grandmasters and I'm sure that many in here do too.

I don't know any Grandmasters at all, though I know several who claim the title... There is a difference between those who deserve the title and those who would actually allow someone to refer to them in such a manner. Typically those who'd allow it are most likely not worthy in the first place.

Just some thoughts...

 

[clfsean]

Not all, certainly, but most. As an example, Hatsumi's 10th dans, be they residing in Japan or elsewhere, are for the most part just over-ranked students of much more junior status... He has admitted that he promoted them to "shame" them into training harder. Too bad he didn't bargain on good old fashioned American laziness... Once they had the rank, who needed to train harder???

Yeah he definately didn't count on the majority of them. There's a couple (very few) that earned that before it became "public" knowledge that are well worthy of it, but those numbers are dwarfed by the others...

I don't know any Grandmasters at all, though I know several who claim the title... There is a difference between those who deserve the title and those who would actually allow someone to refer to them in such a manner. Typically those who'd allow it are most likely not worthy in the first place.

/Begin hopping up & down like a 3rd grade student raising their hand because they know the answer\

I know one!!! I know one!!!!!

/End hopping\

Actually I do. I call him Sigung... because he's my teacher's teacher, therefore my grandmaster. He goes by Dino, like he has for the past 60 years. Everybody else calls him Sifu or Sifu Dino. Their students (we), his grand students, call him Sigung.

Wait.... that's the more appropriate use of grandmaster, isn't it?? Aw dang... no grandmaster club for him...

 

[Matt Stone]

Wait.... that's the more appropriate use of grandmaster, isn't it?? Aw dang... no grandmaster club for him...

When I brought up the issue of what my students (who try to call me Sifu and end up getting beaten on for doing so) were to call my teacher, he simply replied "Sifu."

True, the "proper" term may exist, but both he and I are too touchy about such assuming titles that I think I'd be quite content with my students just calling me by my given name... My wife got rid of whatever vestigial parts of my ego may have remained long ago (we've been married 17 years), so titles don't impress me much nor am I injured by someone "junior" to me handing me my ***...

 

[47MartialMan]

The whole issue to me, on rank, is the very nature by its design.
To show, through an object, accomplishments.

But, do these accomplishments have to reflect such an object that has many different values and standards by many different systems?

The black belt became such a standard to many, the general public and martial artists alike, that for one to out-do the other, "degrees" had to be created.

The general subconscious mind has it, using this analogy, if someone has a 5th Dan rank and another that had a 10h dan rank, as if the later has "twice" as much knowledge.

The logics behind it does not seem to matter that the 5th Dan, in a different art studying for 20 years, cannot match a 10th Dan rank studying the same amount of years.

The issue of rank over-shadows the years of dedication.

To many martial artists, such the ranking of 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th, such holder should have many decades of experience.

I know a 3rd Dan whom had been practicing the same art for 25 years. Everytime his master, or the head of their orgnization, comes into town, this 3rd Dan refuses to accept another rank.

Strange, his head master, whatever, gets more upset with the refusal than the 3rd Dan.

I think, with any rank, although I don't agree with any of it, became a standard, that cannot confine within itself. The rank doesn't reflect skill or perfection.

So when I see, read, or meet, someone that states they have a certain rank, I skip that part and look to ask how many years have they been a martial artist. I almost never ask someone what rank do they hold. Instead, I ask how long have they been a martial artist. It dosen't matter to me in they have the same long years in one art, verses a combine long term in say, 5 arts. And, I not overly immpressed if they have a specific lineage that is well-known. Case in point with my current teacher who is not does not have a well-known lineage, make him less of a instructor or have less knowledge.

So Occidental 10th Dans have the same bearing in my mind as any other rank...over-rated.

 

[lonekimono10]

When I brought up the issue of what my students (who try to call me Sifu and end up getting beaten on for doing so) were to call my teacher, he simply replied "Sifu."

True, the "proper" term may exist, but both he and I are too touchy about such assuming titles that I think I'd be quite content with my students just calling me by my given name... My wife got rid of whatever vestigial parts of my ego may have remained long ago (we've been married 17 years), so titles don't impress me much nor am I injured by someone "junior" to me handing me my ***...

Hello Matt, I mean "sifu" oh thats right i could get beat up for saying that
i'm sorry "sifu" i mean Matt:idunno:

just having fun:ultracool

 

[lonekimono10]

The whole issue to me, on rank, is the very nature by its design.
To show, through an object, accomplishments.

But, do these accomplishments have to reflect such an object that has many different values and standards by many different systems?

The black belt became such a standard to many, the general public and martial artists alike, that for one to out-do the other, "degrees" had to be created.

The general subconscious mind has it, using this analogy, if someone has a 5th Dan rank and another that had a 10h dan rank, as if the later has "twice" as much knowledge.

The logics behind it does not seem to matter that the 5th Dan, in a different art studying for 20 years, cannot match a 10th Dan rank studying the same amount of years.

The issue of rank over-shadows the years of dedication.

To many martial artists, such the ranking of 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th, such holder should have many decades of experience.

I know a 3rd Dan whom had been practicing the same art for 25 years. Everytime his master, or the head of their orgnization, comes into town, this 3rd Dan refuses to accept another rank.

Strange, his head master, whatever, gets more upset with the refusal than the 3rd Dan.

I think, with any rank, although I don't agree with any of it, became a standard, that cannot confine within itself. The rank doesn't reflect skill or perfection.

So when I see, read, or meet, someone that states they have a certain rank, I skip that part and look to ask how many years have they been a martial artist. I almost never ask someone what rank do they hold. Instead, I ask how long have they been a martial artist. It dosen't matter to me in they have the same long years in one art, verses a combine long term in say, 5 arts. And, I not overly immpressed if they have a specific lineage that is well-known. Case in point with my current teacher who is not does not have a well-known lineage, make him less of a instructor or have less knowledge.

So Occidental 10th Dans have the same bearing in my mind as any other rank...over-rated.

hey martial man got something to ask you,how long have you been training? i see that you have alot of things to say, but you don't have your name or anything in here so i know who you are,and how can you say that some people and there ranks(10th) are over rated??? have you walked down that path to see what and why the old man carried the bo/bow over his shoulder??
i just had to ask

 

[47MartialMan]

hey martial man got something to ask you,how long have you been training? i see that you have alot of things to say, but you don't have your name or anything in here so i know who you are,and how can you say that some people and there ranks(10th) are over rated??? have you walked down that path to see what and why the old man carried the bo/bow over his shoulder??
i just had to ask

I have been training for 37 years. Although I had achieve multiple rankings from multiple arts, ranking was never my goal. Starting off young studying from a non-profit instructor in the privacy of his home, had instilled in me not to seek out such. After he had left my pressence, of course by the very nature for me to continue, I had sought other instructors. Ranking came without me having a desire for them. In fact, my ranking certifcates, which were framed by my wife to hang in the "office"/computer of our home, have not even been hung. And this has been about 20 years. They remain, in a filing cabinet right next to my computer desk as I sit to the left. Starnge, the only actual black belt (cloth) I have ever owned, is in the cabinet also. I had rarely worn it, though sentimentically, it was one given to me right off one of my past instructors when he did not want to wait and order one from a supply house. Which there weren't many of those as there are now.

Two arts that I had studied, per one of the two that I stated in the beginning of this reply, are not enhtrawed by ranking issues. They do not award them. You practice until you got whatever routine/drill/method correct.

In my mind, and IMHO, the rank doesn't reflect whom I am and what are my skills. When I state ranking being over-rated, by this I mean, many Occidentals fall into the ranking issue moreso that European and Easterners. So given that, years/decades of experience or training outweighs a rank. And not vice versa to constantly "rate" the rank "over" such years/decades.

But, do not misconstrue from my wording of over-rated, as a conveyance to state that anyone, with any rank, does not have skills or experience

 

[lonekimono10]

very nice, and i understand what you had to say,you know i'm just an old type of guy myself and my name is George, i see that you forgot to add yours?:idunno: i don't know what to call you,anyway about the old man??? talk to me????

 

[47MartialMan]

very nice, and i understand what you had to say,you know i'm just an old type of guy myself and my name is George, i see that you forgot to add yours?:idunno: i don't know what to call you,anyway about the old man??? talk to me????

People call me many things, esp my wife-

My birth name is Richard

 

[lonekimono10]

Ok Rich, now we break bread together:ultracool (LOL), i'll have some more coffee.

 

[The Kai]

Sometimes I think about when Karate came to Japan. Wado Ryu was founded by a gentleman who trained with Funakoshi, I think to 2nd or third blacl belt then mixed in the Jujitsu that he knew. Came up with Wado ryu karate. Now was there initial resistence? How about Mas Oyama, there does'nt seem to be a lot of verifiable evidence to support the Chinese kempo connection-so he took the shotokan he knew put a different spin on it. Initial resistence? BTW this is not a knock on these two well respected arts. But I think there is gonna be a slight adjustment factor when the american artists start exerting thier independence

 

[clfsean]

Well the differences between Ohtuska (Wado ryu) & Oyama (Kyokukshin) is a lot different than the majority of the American "Soke-Doke" club members.

Ohtuska was the headmaster of Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu. He started studying that when he was 13. He didn't earn that position until he was 29. He started studying jujutsu initially when he was 6 with his father. He was the 4th headmaster of the Shindo Yoshinryu & this was in 1921. So... do a little backtracking & we'll be liberal to say each of the previous headmasters were in control of the school for 30 years, from say age 30 to 60. 90 years prior to 1921.... 1831. Tokogawa Shogunate & jujutsu was being used still keep yourself alive at that time. So now flash back forward... 1921 & he's awarded this title & position. In 1922 he began studying with Funakoshi. In 1924 he earns dan rank. in 1939 he founds Wado Ryu. Again a little math...
1921 == 29 years old...
1939 == 18 years later...

47 years old, practicing MA for 41 years, headmaster of a jujutsu lineage dating back (at this point) over 100 years old, a practicing karate black belt for 15 years... decides to open his own school & put his spin on the karate taught to him by Funakoshi. Plus he talked with other contemporary masters of the time like Mabuni Kenwa of Shito-ryu & Motobu Choki of Goju-ryu for their insights & ideas.

He doesn't "promote" himself to "grand super poobah almight potentate" or "10th degree red with gold frillies belt". Nothing like that. He just opens his school & starts there. His son takes over at his death. He didn't "earn 1 belt here, 1 there, a little here, a seminar there..." He combined 2 things he knew into one. He didn't mix a whole bunch of things into one big ball of not much.

Oyama... he's easy enough to research. I'll leave that to anybody else who's curious.

 

[lonekimono10]

Sometimes I think about when Karate came to Japan. Wado Ryu was founded by a gentleman who trained with Funakoshi, I think to 2nd or third blacl belt then mixed in the Jujitsu that he knew. Came up with Wado ryu karate. Now was there initial resistence? How about Mas Oyama, there does'nt seem to be a lot of verifiable evidence to support the Chinese kempo connection-so he took the shotokan he knew put a different spin on it. Initial resistence? BTW this is not a knock on these two well respected arts. But I think there is gonna be a slight adjustment factor when the american artists start exerting thier independence

Hey Todd i aways like what you have to sayartyon:

 

[The Kai]

Hey Todd i aways like what you have to sayartyon:

Opinions Vary:idunno: . But there are western martial artists that are legit and sincere. It is easy to pick on the Soke Joky councils-but is not america due for a coming of age in the martial arts?
While it might be "unseeming" to demand respect, has not the sincere, honest long time westrn artists due a touch o' respect?

 

[lonekimono10]

Todd you must be a great teacher, because of how you speakartyon:

 

[The Kai]

Yesss! I am the Master of Deadly Elocution.

Are you bustin my chops?

 

[TimoS]

Ohtuska was the headmaster of Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu.

Actually, he wasn't the headmaster. I think he was a high ranking instructor, but not the headmaster according to what I've read elsewhere (can't remember right now where).

Other than that, I pretty much agree what you're saying

 

[clfsean]

Timo... could be. I dunno. I've never practiced Wado. I've heard of it & Ohtsuka. I got my info on from a website...


http://www.wado-ryu-karate.com/#Wado

 

[lonekimono10]

Yesss! I am the Master of Deadly Elocution.

Are you bustin my chops?

no i'm not,you should know me better than that