Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

[Matt Stone]

Hello Matt, I mean "sifu" oh thats right i could get beat up for saying that
i'm sorry "sifu" i mean Matt:idunno:

just having fun:ultracool

I didn't say "beaten up" I said "beaten on." Though they don't really need to do much of anything for that to happen anyway...

 

[47MartialMan]

Also, along the issue of rank, if anyone desires to claim such a high rank or title, can being doing out of many reasons. Such reasons as ego, recognition (either by peers or for fame sake), business competition, reference to years training, etc. The issue of Dans/rank lay in the confines of itself. The impossibility to actually make it a “universal standard”

What's in a term?
Take the title of Soke. Whether it reflects someone who says it is 10th Dan rank, founder, creator, whatever, to apply it in Occidental usage may have no bearing on what another may say it means. Being that it may be an indigenous term meaning something specific in Japan, can take on a different meaning or slang elsewhere. Given hypothetically, that to be a 10th Dan, one has to be a martial artist, say for example, for 30 years. What standard because of many systems, can one from one art, say how many years that someone should receive a 10th rank in another?

Take Karate, for example. As most scholars would state, that it was a term indigenous or created by Japanese, based upon Okinawa fighting arts. Though the Okinawans didn’t refer to their art as this, preceeding the Japanese term, some still label Okinawan arts, or its descending arts as “Okinawa Karate”. Same for Ju Jitsu and Brazilian Ju Jitsu. If all this can be applied to a term outside of its origin of creation, then why can’t there be American Karate, American Ju Jitsu, Russian Tai Chi, American Soke or Occidental 10th Dans.?

This reminds me of the term Kung Fu, pronounced as spelled to relate to Chinese Martial Arts. But given this pronunciation is not correctly spoken apart from proper Chinese, many Chinese and other cultures still pronounce it this way. What difference, per only pronunciation, than it should be pronounced Gong Fu if it has the same or different meaning? The same goes for Sifu, pronounced “See-Fu”, when by Chinese pronunciation it sounds more like Shifu, “She-Fu”. And given the logics of term usage, then there shouldn’t be any Kung Fu schools out there when old traditional Chinese martial arts were not referred this way as meaning a martial art.

Lastly, on a note, I am not trying to defend those that do it out of ego or con, but if the intentions are correct, to quote a phrase from a movie, "Who cares if Bruce Springsteen is a Shidoshi?"

 

[LT2002]

It certainly not as prevelant in the east, and I rarely if ever see a 10th over here that claims 2,3,5,or even 8 high dan ranks as well as a 10th dan.

Also, most 10th dans I see here have been in that style for a very long time.

Nice point!

How many 10th Dan's here have additional rank besides their 10th and are 30-40 year old's?

Doesn't mean someone cannot be very talented, but how can anyone study so many different styles, be proficient in 2,3,5 or 8 styles AND still have a family and a job?

Some are earned ranks, and likely many are not

I thought tenth was an honorary position??

 

[47MartialMan]

Nice point!

How many 10th Dan's here have additional rank besides their 10th and are 30-40 year old's?

Doesn't mean someone cannot be very talented, but how can anyone study so many different styles, be proficient in 2,3,5 or 8 styles AND still have a family and a job?

Some are earned ranks, and likely many are not

I thought tenth was an honorary position??

I can undersatnd the confusion. But in accordance to my post, how can there be a standard on how many years or critetia it will take to be a 10th Dan when every system or style has different views? Can we place a age on it or a criteria of skill? Lets say it takes one to be qoth Dan 40 years. let's say that these years have to have it that the person had to start at the standard age of 15. That will make the age of the rank holder 55. Now lets say, along comes a younger-stronger person. Versitile in other arts. Whom had studied for 30 years and started at the age of 10. This will make this rank holder 40. Now lets say that the 40 year hold can beat the 55 year old...so what's in a rank?

 

[clfsean]

This reminds me of the term Kung Fu, pronounced as spelled to relate to Chinese Martial Arts. But given this pronunciation is not correctly spoken apart from proper Chinese, many Chinese and other cultures still pronounce it this way. What difference, per only pronunciation, than it should be pronounced Gong Fu if it has the same or different meaning? The same goes for Sifu, pronounced “See-Fu”, when by Chinese pronunciation it sounds more like Shifu, “She-Fu”. And given the logics of term usage, then there shouldn’t be any Kung Fu schools out there when old traditional Chinese martial arts were not referred this way as meaning a martial art.

Mandarin... shifu (sher-foo)
Cantonese... sifu (see-foo)

Distinct differences in pronunciation between the languages...

 

[lonekimono10]

I can undersatnd the confusion. But in accordance to my post, how can there be a standard on how many years or critetia it will take to be a 10th Dan when every system or style has different views? Can we place a age on it or a criteria of skill? Lets say it takes one to be qoth Dan 40 years. let's say that these years have to have it that the person had to start at the standard age of 15. That will make the age of the rank holder 55. Now lets say, along comes a younger-stronger person. Versitile in other arts. Whom had studied for 30 years and started at the age of 10. This will make this rank holder 40. Now lets say that the 40 year hold can beat the 55 year old...so what's in a rank?

you make a very good point

 

[47MartialMan]

Mandarin... shifu (sher-foo)
Cantonese... sifu (see-foo)

Distinct differences in pronunciation between the languages...

Thanks for the little correction-Sorry, if I went off-detail and too much on a layman tangent.
Yes, differences pronounced within the same land-different dialect.
Even pending Wade Giles or Pinyin.
(I think the Chinese government is trying to standardize)
I have seen both spelled either Si fuh or Shi fuh, same as Si Gung/Shi Gung.
Per about 11 dialects in China, pronounciation and meaning differ.
(I had a Chinese instructor and Mandarin was the dialect he had used. Moreso strange, within their family were different terms apart from the "mainstram", per their own slang)

Lets see if I can give another example, per Acadian French is not easily understood by actual French in France. Or per another example a friend of mine who is Hispanic, getting low grades in Spanish, because of differences. Although in some terminology the pronounciation is the same, but may be different pending the sources.

This is part of my point. Things spoken somewhat close to spelling, pronounciation, slang, have different meaning pending the culture. The Ranking Race is on in this particular era of martial arts when at a time, the methods, acquistion of skills were far more important. It is far over-rated in perspective to symbollize skill rather than on charecter and skill on its own merit.

I look favorably upon years of experience rather than levels of a cloth that was initially designed to hold the jacket close and/or the trousers up.

 

[lonekimono10]

ok now i feel like i'm back in school(grade school) ,"ah teacher do we have to learn about the french today, i have to go to the boys room":idunno:
oh i'm sorry i meant to say "sifu" or do i have to say that another way?
oh i know "sensei"or maybe this will work "sa-ba-nim" oh i don't know,just let me go to the boys room:ultracool

just having some fun with you guys while i have my coffee,(want some?)

 

[Goldendragon7]

ok, now I have my coffee, (want some?)

NO..... I'm not into drugs!

 

[Matt Stone]

I posted yesterday, but somehow my response is no longer present... Anybody know why?

I'll try to recreate it...

Also, along the issue of rank, if anyone desires to claim such a high rank or title, can being doing out of many reasons. Such reasons as ego, recognition (either by peers or for fame sake), business competition, reference to years training, etc.

I think it is probably accurate to state that anybody laying claim to multiple extremely high grades in different arts is doing little other than feeding his/her own ego. Whether that person has self-esteem issues from being beaten up as a young child, or whatever underlying cause generates their (usually) fraudulent behavior, it boils down to a personal, selfish reason. The students probably don't care how many black belts their teacher has as long as he/she can walk the walk they are saying they can walk!

]Take the title of Soke.

I'd love to... and flush it down the toilet! It is rapidly becoming the most misused and misunderstood bogus term in martial arts circles to date. That and "professor," or "great grand master" (because "master" isn't good enough, it seems...)

Whether it reflects someone who says it is 10th Dan rank, founder, creator, whatever, to apply it in Occidental usage may have no bearing on what another may say it means. Being that it may be an indigenous term meaning something specific in Japan, can take on a different meaning or slang elsewhere.

This is the typical error American martial artists make... They use foreign language words, taken from languages they either don't understand or don't speak at all (much less fluently), and they claim they can use the word to mean whatever they like. Bovine excrement say I! If I say that ketchup polar bear artichoke meandering hazelnut laundry soap spackle scrum is my martial arts title, that it means "most high and exalted master of time, space and dimension," and that you must use the term that way to address me, am I right in any possible manner? Does the fact that the alleged "title" is complete gibberish not count for anything? Further, why do supposedly "new" arts, created in whatever country, seek to somehow legitimize themselves by using foreign language terms? Isn't that just another tactic to amaze, befuddle, and further defraud new students by making them think the art is something it isn't?

Take Karate, for example. As most scholars would state, that it was a term indigenous or created by Japanese, based upon Okinawa fighting arts. Though the Okinawans didn’t refer to their art as this, preceeding the Japanese term, some still label Okinawan arts, or its descending arts as “Okinawa Karate”. Same for Ju Jitsu and Brazilian Ju Jitsu. If all this can be applied to a term outside of its origin of creation, then why can’t there be American Karate, American Ju Jitsu, Russian Tai Chi, American Soke or Occidental 10th Dans.?

I don't think that "most scholars" would make the assumptions you do in the above paragraph. Scholars, by definition, have done their research and don't rely solely on bad stories and inaccurate histories passed down to them by their teachers... Again, why does American Karate need to call itself Karate? Can't it come up with an English name? The same goes for the rest of the examples you cite... Why do they need to both tie themselves to the history and legacy of a foreign art and culture, while they simultaneously attempt to separate themselves from the same?

This reminds me of the term Kung Fu, pronounced as spelled to relate to Chinese Martial Arts. But given this pronunciation is not correctly spoken apart from proper Chinese, many Chinese and other cultures still pronounce it this way. What difference, per only pronunciation, than it should be pronounced Gong Fu if it has the same or different meaning? The same goes for Sifu, pronounced “See-Fu”, when by Chinese pronunciation it sounds more like Shifu, “She-Fu”. And given the logics of term usage, then there shouldn’t be any Kung Fu schools out there when old traditional Chinese martial arts were not referred this way as meaning a martial art.

Enough people have chimed in on the pronunciation issue of Sifu and Shifu. I won't drag it out. Bear in mind, though, that the term "Kung Fu" as you point out is still yet another example of the improper understanding American martial artists have of the languages from which their arts derive their terminology! If they don't know what the terms really mean, then they should learn. If they refuse to put forth the effort to learn, they should either not teach (my personal recommendation) or drop the foreign terms entirely (if they absolutely must teach for whatever reason).

Enjoy.

 

[47MartialMan]

The students probably don't care how many black belts their teacher has as long as he/she can walk the walk they are saying they can walk!

Sorry, could you elaborate a little more on this-thanks

I'd love to... and flush it down the toilet! It is rapidly becoming the most misused and misunderstood bogus term in martial arts circles to date. That and "professor," or "great grand master" (because "master" isn't good enough, it seems...)

Yes, it, like ranking, has to do with a certain mind set.

This is the typical error American martial artists make... They use foreign language words, taken from languages they either don't understand or don't speak at all (much less fluently), and they claim they can use the word to mean whatever they like. Bovine excrement say I! If I say that ketchup polar bear artichoke meandering hazelnut laundry soap spackle scrum is my martial arts title, that it means "most high and exalted master of time, space and dimension," and that you must use the term that way to address me, am I right in any possible manner?

Good point

Further, why do supposedly "new" arts, created in whatever country, seek to somehow legitimize themselves by using foreign language terms?

Because it is more intriguing for the people whom may not know better.

Does the fact that the alleged "title" is complete gibberish not count for anything?

But, titles to other arts that are developed seem to be accepted.

Again, why does American Karate need to call itself Karate? Can't it come up with an English name? The same goes for the rest of the examples you cite... Why do they need to both tie themselves to the history and legacy of a foreign art and culture, while they simultaneously attempt to separate themselves from the same?

It is the reinvention of the wheel? Or laying claims to have built the better "mouse trap"?

Enough people have chimed in on the pronunciation issue of Sifu and Shifu. I won't drag it out. Bear in mind, though, that the term "Kung Fu" as you point out is still yet another example of the improper understanding American martial artists have of the languages from which their arts derive their terminology! If they don't know what the terms really mean, then they should learn. If they refuse to put forth the effort to learn, they should either not teach (my personal recommendation) or drop the foreign terms entirely (if they absolutely must teach for whatever reason).

Yes, does this also go for Kung Fu Guans/Kwoons out there that use color sashes. A rank system such as this?

Hey, I am not trying to be credulous of this subject/rank or other. Posting wide open from another vantage point.

 

[The Kai]

Can't it come up with an English name? The same goes for the rest of the examples you cite... Why do they need to both tie themselves to the history and legacy of a foreign art and culture, while they simultaneously attempt to separate themselves from the same?

For better for worse the english name is Karate, we did not have anything equivelent and it would have been clumsy to keep saying "The Empty Hand School". American is a country that takes, uses and adapts ideas or words to fill in the cultural blanks. The term American Karate is not misleading (Well except when a TKD teacher uses it). It descibes what we are doing and the manner in which we are doing it. The Soke and overuse of titles, again probably not correct in thier native settings be usefull here.

 

[47MartialMan]

American is a country that takes, uses and adapts ideas or words to fill in the cultural blanks.

Sounds about right, however, America is not the only country that does this.

 

[Matt Stone]

Sorry, could you elaborate a little more on this-thanks

Does a beginning student really, truly care that his/her teacher has a black belt in 93 different disciplines? Or is it more important that the teacher be able to perform whatever it is he/she claims their art is capable of? If a teacher claims to be able to fly, would a student be more concerned with the certificates supporting the claim, or seeing the teacher fly through the air?

Because it is more intriguing for the people whom may not know better.

My point exactly... It is a marketing ploy to garner new students through mysticizing the art as well as lending it an air of legitimacy by alleging ties to the "deadly arts of the far east."

But, titles to other arts that are developed seem to be accepted.

Not always, and usually because they are titles within the foreign language, and are used properly according to that language's rules. Again, if I say "dai-renshi rokudan-sho sigung sifu sensei-san" is it a legitimate title? Hardly. Nor are "dai-soke" or "dai-shihan," and the spoken use of titles like "shihan," "renshi," and such are still inappropriate (those titles are used only in written correspondence; it's like calling someone "Ph.D. Smith," as opposed to either Mr. or Dr. Smith...) no matter how appropriate and legitimate the title itself may be...

It is the reinvention of the wheel? Or laying claims to have built the better "mouse trap"?

The bulk of these so-called "new" arts are nothing more than repackaged mish-mashes and hodge-podges of arts the "founder" learned only partially, tossed together randomly to form a "new" approach... There is little that is new under the sun, and common sense dictates that all the "new" allegedly "ultimate" arts springing up simply can't all be "the best." The word "best" implies that there is nothing above it. Logically, they can't all be the best...

Yes, does this also go for Kung Fu Guans/Kwoons out there that use color sashes. A rank system such as this?

Our school uses colored belts/sashes. It isn't so much an issue of rank as it is a rapid method by which the instructor can separate students into similar training groups and focus on their particular needs. We openly acknowledge that some of our "junior" students show particular skills that far surpass their "rank." However, in order to standardize all of our training, ensuring that our standards of instruction are not compromised and that all teachers are providing the same information, we have divided the areas of instruction into levels.

While CMA for the most part hasn't employed belts/sashes, that isn't 100% true of all styles. Many had white and black sashes to identify junior and senior students, or students and instructors. Further, the PRC is currently instituting a "duan" grading system for Government instructors that roughly corresponds to a belt system... Whether this is a good or bad thing remains to be seen.

See you all tomorrow.

 

[47MartialMan]

A.) Does a beginning student really, truly care that his/her teacher has a black belt in 93 different disciplines? Or is it more important that the teacher be able to perform whatever it is he/she claims their art is capable of?

B.) If a teacher claims to be able to fly, would a student be more concerned with the certificates supporting the claim, or seeing the teacher fly through the air?

A.) Well yes and no. Of course they care. To some, this is why such ranking is there. To have the student/public think so. No, as long as the student/public is not pre-informed/pre-educated

B.) Funny you should "pun" the term "fly". But, given that a realtionship is cast, a student can be deceived enough to believe. I used to be an amateur magician and belonged to a Magician's Guild. We had and performed, much study on feats of super human traits or Chi.

My point exactly... It is a marketing ploy to garner new students through mysticizing the art as well as lending it an air of legitimacy by alleging ties to the "deadly arts of the far east."

Yes, giving the concesus, many Occidental/English dictionaries define Martial Art as -any Oriental arts of combat, as Karate, Judo, etc., practiced as a sport. No wonder that countries outside of the east, want to continue ties.

Not always, and usually because they are titles within the foreign language, and are used properly according to that language's rules. Again, if I say "dai-renshi rokudan-sho sigung sifu sensei-san" is it a legitimate title? Hardly. Nor are "dai-soke" or "dai-shihan," and the spoken use of titles like "shihan," "renshi," and such are still inappropriate (those titles are used only in written correspondence; it's like calling someone "Ph.D. Smith," as opposed to either Mr. or Dr. Smith...) no matter how appropriate and legitimate the title itself may be...

Well how about Mr. Smith, Ph.D.? :erg:

The bulk of these so-called "new" arts are nothing more than repackaged mish-mashes and hodge-podges of arts the "founder" learned only partially, tossed together randomly to form a "new" approach... There is little that is new under the sun, and common sense dictates that all the "new" allegedly "ultimate" arts springing up simply can't all be "the best." The word "best" implies that there is nothing above it. Logically, they can't all be the best...

Though I somewhat agree, not all newly-formed arts claim to be. The martial arts have always been hodge podges of arts. Mish-mashes into a melting pot of time.

Our school uses colored belts/sashes. It isn't so much an issue of rank as it is a rapid method by which the instructor can separate students into similar training groups and focus on their particular needs. We openly acknowledge that some of our "junior" students show particular skills that far surpass their "rank." However, in order to standardize all of our training, ensuring that our standards of instruction are not compromised and that all teachers are providing the same information, we have divided the areas of instruction into levels.

And thus is the ranking issue-standardization. How can such be said of a certain rank in one to state that it cannot be so in another? Ther is no "unniversal standard"...thats the problem. So, of course the "rank race" is on.

While CMA for the most part hasn't employed belts/sashes, that isn't 100% true of all styles. Many had white and black sashes to identify junior and senior students, or students and instructors. Further, the PRC is currently instituting a "duan" grading system for Government instructors that roughly corresponds to a belt system... Whether this is a good or bad thing remains to be seen.
I had studied in one that you onle got three. Black for begiiner, White for advanced, and a dark yelloo for teacher. However these were not worn during workouts and only worn formsally.
So given sahses of many colors, so too fell into the ranking snare. Why has such be needed when it wasn't about a century or more ago.? The routines/drills were to develop skills. The skills were in there own way, accomplishments and status. certain routines/drill weren;t shown to beginners but reserved for advanced.

 

[Matt Stone]

A.) Well yes and no. Of course they care. To some, this is why such ranking is there. To have the student/public think so. No, as long as the student/public is not pre-informed/pre-educated

You're right, students would care if they knew enough about martial arts ranking to be able to tell the difference between truth and fraud. Given that the novice student knows precious little beyond what they've seen on TV, they are almost always conned into believing "bigger is better" in regards to their prospective teacher's curriculum vitae... The more black belts he has, the better he should be, right?

Well how about Mr. Smith, Ph.D.? :erg:

You could refer to someone as that during a verbal introduction, or in writing, but you certainly wouldn't ask him a question by saying "Excuse me Mr. Smith, Ph.D., I'd like to know...," would you? Of course not. The same is true of the shihan/renshi/hanshi/kyoshi titles... It just isn't done.

Though I somewhat agree, not all newly-formed arts claim to be. The martial arts have always been hodge podges of arts. Mish-mashes into a melting pot of time.

True on all counts. However, we are discussing the questionable arts whose teachers make claims of near god-hood due to their massive collection of incredibly high ranks in multiple martial arts. Typically a "new" art's teacher wouldn't go out of his/her way to advertise his/her background unless they were trying to impress someone into thinking they were more than they were... My teacher is the "founder" of Yiliquan (though it is more a reorganization and streamlining of an art that goes back over several hundred years than a "new" art), and he has earned black belts in other arts over the years. He has a 3d dan in Kyokushin, a 2nd dan in Shito-ryu, was a JKD chapter leader once upon a time, and was an instructor of Pekiti-Tirsia under Leo Gaje. But that isn't stuff put into the flyer for new students... It just doesn't matter. He won't hide his history, but he doesn't go out of his way to advertise it or shove it in someone's face. Note also he isn't claiming uber-dan rank in any art at all...

I had studied in one that you onle got three. Black for begiiner, White for advanced, and a dark yelloo for teacher. However these were not worn during workouts and only worn formsally.

We wear ours as a training aid for breathing and breath control, so its actual purpose (for us anyway) is twofold - quick division of groups during class and to teach us to breath properly.

Anyway...

 

[47MartialMan]

You're right, students would care if they knew enough about martial arts ranking to be able to tell the difference between truth and fraud. Given that the novice student knows precious little beyond what they've seen on TV, they are almost always conned into believing "bigger is better" in regards to their prospective teacher's curriculum vitae... The more black belts he has, the better he should be, right?...

This is exactly what I ve een trying to say. As if a 10th Dan had twice as much knowledge/and or skill as a 5th Dan.

You could refer to someone as that during a verbal introduction, or in writing, but you certainly wouldn't ask him a question by saying "Excuse me Mr. Smith, Ph.D., I'd like to know...," would you? Of course not. The same is true of the shihan/renshi/hanshi/kyoshi titles... It just isn't done....

However, does Mr Smith sign his name as MR Smith Ph.D. Or Dr. Smith? I know the answer, exact on forma refrences. As if anyone would sign there name to a letter as Mr. Matt Stone, etc.,

A.) However, we are discussing the questionable arts whose teachers make claims of near god-hood due to their massive collection of incredibly high ranks in multiple martial arts. B.) Typically a "new" art's teacher wouldn't go out of his/her way to advertise his/her background unless they were trying to impress someone into thinking they were more than they were...

C.) My teacher is the "founder" of Yiliquan (though it is more a reorganization and streamlining of an art that goes back over several hundred years than a "new" art), and he has earned black belts in other arts over the years. He has a 3d dan in Kyokushin, a 2nd dan in Shito-ryu, was a JKD chapter leader once upon a time, and was an instructor of Pekiti-Tirsia under Leo Gaje. But that isn't stuff put into the flyer for new students... It just doesn't matter. He won't hide his history, but he doesn't go out of his way to advertise it or shove it in someone's face. Note also he isn't claiming uber-dan rank in any art at all......

A.) Questionable arts? or Questionable ranks?
B.) Why not? Many martial art founders went out of their way to incorporate certain areas to make sure that followers/students. understand a status(no neccesarily rank). What is failed to mention, with high rank, is not just ego, as I stated in my previous post. But competetion and/or business venture. To get more students. More students =$$$? So, rank also =$$$$. If such a goal is to make $$$, then the scruntiny of rank to make $$$/profit, is also that of all these little things in commercial schools that do the same. Plain and simple-rank sells. (Now dont go on a tangent about commercial schools-I am not degrading anyone.)
C.) Nice and modest of him. I do not go out of my way to state my ranking status. I am not concerned what I have black belts or status in.

We wear ours as a training aid for breathing and breath control, so its actual purpose (for us anyway) is twofold - quick division of groups during class and to teach us to breath properly...

Is there a test and/or fee for each color?

 

[James Kovacich]

Anyway...

Matt are you in the middle east? My prayers are with you and your "brothers and sisters" by your side!

 

[BruceCalkins]

All just need to remember one thing. This is the 21st century. Not Old Nipon of Japan or China.

Titles are to show levels of training. In American Schools Rank Belts Are to Show levels of training. If we go back to old ways there were no "Yellow, Orangw Brown..etc... There was a White Canvas Belt to hold your uniform closed .. (Because they didn't all have the Neat ties that the ones we buy now have).. And when your instructor was done with you... After so long of training your belt was soiled and dark. You were then given Instructor rank... AKA; Black Belt or Black Sash depending on your style.

Schools in America mostly use the Japanese titles to help with rank notation. I mean if you have a 1st black belt and don't teach full time. They started using Sempai instead of Asst. Insrtuctor. It was easier. Then Sensei, Renshi and I have even heard Dai-Sensei, Shihan, Hanshi... and so on. I trained with two great men Kyoshi Robert Austin and Sensei Robert Koch and they teach American Kenpo. IKKA / AKKI and they use the Japanese titles. It is their choice. Also I would in this end of the world rather be called Soke Calkins instead of Grand Master or Master Calkins. I think that just sounds to pretentious and puts an air of Servatude to the art. I dont want to be called MASTER... Students are not Slaves.

As for system heads or what was once called Head of Family. "Soke" when in old days an insturctor began a new system he was Head of his Family and that was who he basicly taught his are to so SOKE was the Head of Family. In america we teach to the masses. and not just family. (Eventhough I look to my students like Family and Close friends.) So in my Dojo I am "Head Of Family"

 

[Andrew Green]

The white belt getting dirty idea is just a myth, no truth too it.

Kano started the belt system by awarding black belts to senior students.

With the Japanese cleanliness ideas, how sore do you think a person that showed up with a uniform that dirty would have been by the end of class? Providing they even got to participate?

Soke doesn't just mean "Head of Family". It was a title that came from the gov't as I understand, basically a gov't granted monopoly on a certain trade or craft. A person couldn't simply claim it.