American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[Don Roley]

You know, I really did try to avoid singling out the other side of the debate. I said things like "it is all about the ego" and not, "you are only in it for the ego." Can I help it if the other side put the shoes on and loudly complained that they fit? And then get preachy and cop an attitude of, "how dare you judge me?" Isn't that the reason people want to reform the rank system, so that others can judge them and make choices?

 

[Don Roley]

But you know as along as we are on the subject, let me tell you what I see when I look at those on the other side of the debate.

First of all, you started your own system(s) and most of the folks I run across that have done that strike me as being a bit egotistical and in need of a lot more training. I know folks that have struck out and done their own thing whom I respect, but they tend to be low key and the vast majority are not anywhere as skilled as they should be.

Second, I see people sitting around and giving themselves rank. They are not using the highest rank they got from one of their teachers. They (and their freinds) are determining just how high a rank they should have. That strikes me the wrong way.

Third, I see people letting us know that they could have given themselves a higher rank, but instead make a big play of being humble and giving themselves something other than tenth dan.

Last, I see these guys try to take the moral high ground due to their show of humbleness and try to convince us that they are acting in the best interest of the children with their actions.

That is what I see when I look across the aisle at the other side of the debate. I am sure you have excuses for all your actions, but your actions speak louder to me than your words.

 

[James Kovacich]

But you know as along as we are on the subject, let me tell you what I see when I look at those on the other side of the debate.

First of all, you started your own system(s) and most of the folks I run across that have done that strike me as being a bit egotistical and in need of a lot more training. I know folks that have struck out and done their own thing whom I respect, but they tend to be low key and the vast majority are not anywhere as skilled as they should be.

Second, I see people sitting around and giving themselves rank. They are not using the highest rank they got from one of their teachers. They (and their freinds) are determining just how high a rank they should have. That strikes me the wrong way.

.

You say that the general public can't tell enough about martial arts to tell good from bad and they merely go by what rank a person has. Well, to tell you the truth, I happen to agree. But those types of people are not the ones I want taking up my time if I ever return to America and start teaching.

You may be right but that does not mean you are right all of the time in regards to your statement here. The one thing that I notice about your posts which I have read for a long time is that you don't except that the martial arts in America are now AMERICAN.

You have issues with Americans rank and the way they issue it. That is fair but it is still only your opinion which really has little bearing because by your own omission today, you are not a part of the American Martial Arts. Thats the main reason I've never agreed with you and your "trollbasher" friends (you know who I'm talking about).

I think (by your posts) you have a lot of knowledge but you rather try to push E-Budo rank moralities. "We" can easily examine all of "Americas" martial arts dating all the back to the earliest arts in America and "you" know after examining, that no American downline from the earliest American arts deserves rank.

These arts, it's practioners and all the rest of us who are doing the same are not going away and we are more serious than you take us for. You just don't see because your wearing E-Budo blinders.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You may be right but that does not mean you are right all of the time in regards to your statement here. The one thing that I notice about your posts which I have read for a long time is that you don't except that the martial arts in America are now AMERICAN.

You have issues with Americans rank and the way they issue it. That is fair but it is still only your opinion which really has little bearing because by your own omission today, you are not a part of the American Martial Arts. Thats the main reason I've never agreed with you and your "trollbasher" friends (you know who I'm talking about.

I think (by your posts) you have a lot of knowledge but you rather try to push E-Budo rank moralities. "We" can easily examine all of "Americas" martial arts dating all the back to the earliest arts in America and "you" know after examining, that no American downline from the earliest American arts deserves rank.

These arts, it's practioners and all the rest of us who are doing the same are not going away and we are more serious than you take us for. You just don't see because your wearing E-Budo blinders.

James,

I do not think that Don looks down on American martial arts or Americans practicing martial arts. He does certainly and rightfully look down on someone claiming lineage that does not exist. Don does tend to keep people who are preachy or egotistical in line and in check but in my opinioin he enjoys and likes people from all styles. Whether they be street fighters like Mark McYoung, Peyton Quinn to serious martial artists of all endeavors. If for instance someone claims ninjutsu lineage but cannot or will not back up a claim of a Japanese teacher teaching them then of course they should be questioned on their credibility. However, in this case these two gentleman seem to carry on internet conversation in a condescending tone or pushy, preachy however you wish to define it.
That is just my 02. cents.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Well...this certainly has been a waste of time.

Apparently, Mr. Roley has never played devil's advocate on any issue.....ever.

Mr. Roley....it is fine you disagree with the 'idea' of rank system minimization (that's what we've really been talking about). And it is fine that you believe no one should ever institute their own systemized approach to martial arts. These are matters of personal choice. I could just as easily denegrate your choices and personalize the debate by going after your character on these issues. But that wouldn't further the discussion. So....we basically have two sets of people involved in this thread.

One set wants to discuss the concept, methods, methodologies, protocols and procedures of various ranks systems, pro and con.

One wants to make value judgements about those that would like to discuss the issue above.

The second set are not concerned with the debate....

...so why can't you just mind your own business and stay out of it? Or is that too difficult for your 'ego' to take.

Basically, Mr. Roley, you've stated your position about people involved in this discussion and you are recalitrant with regard to changing it....so, as I must now do as I often must do when dealing with such people on the job; I offer you this:

"You have the right to remain silent."

Please exercise it.

domoarigatogozaimas

JH

 

[MJS]

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The rules & policies of MartialTalk are in place to ensure we maintain a FRIENDLY discussion of the Martial Arts. The recent posts in this thread have shown a disregard, if not for just the specific rules, then to the intent of the MartialTalk community. For these reasons this thread shall remain locked.

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