Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

[RRouuselot]

1) On a serious note. I'm not anywhere near racist.
2) Maybe it's westerners fault (partially) that state that in the east standards are higher.

1) No, you just call "asian" people and their arts weak.
2) Really? Who stated that? I don't recall reading it on MT. I know I stated it claiming at 10th dan wasn't as "prevelant in the east".......

 

[The Kai]

Okay lets see if we can go in a slightly different direction
There are a lot of "unearned"8th-9th degress around around the goood ole USA" right - SO THIS IS NOT THE POINT!!! okay

Here is my simple question

"Under what circumstances do you think a westerner could be a 10th degree"


Short of the cheesy movie plot-you know the one I saved this nice japanese man then he made me soke.

 

[Makalakumu]

I am sorry but I can’t. It’s not something we discuss.

I understand. I was a bit uncomfortable asking the question because the rules are the same in my art... :idunno:

I know that a person in my art went through a little bit of hell to acheive 4th dan. For 5th, the hell gets worse and for 6th...very few ever make it this far for a reason.

I think that this is the reason why it bothers me when people make up bogus rank. Where is the accomplishment? Where is the test?

I just don't respect that sort of thing when I try to compare it to my arts upper ranks. Sure I'm being a little myopic here, but TSD is what I'm dedicated to and TSD is the lense that I use.

I hope this makes sense...

upnorthkyosa

 

[dubljay]

Here is my simple question

"Under what circumstances do you think a westerner could be a 10th degree"

Edit: this post is directed at no one in particular, just my ranting about this in general

I've answered your question with another Why does it matter? Who gives a flying rats ______ about who is wandering around wtih double bars, fancy embroidery, jazzed up special belts? Does the title of soke, uber grandmaster, with god like speed and power, really mean anything? Who would you rather train under? A person walking around as king of the martial arts world with the belt to prove it? Or would you rather train with a person who is knowledgeable, proficient, and there for the art and not a ______ thing else?

The point of martial arts its the knowledge, nothing more nothing less. You can chose to dedicate yourself to the knowledge to be had, or the number of stripes on your (or another person's) belt.

Does bickering about legit uber ranks do anything to further the knowledge of martial arts? NO it is petty and wasted time and energy. I don't remember where I heard this but it is very true "Critisizing others only shows your need to be critical". Let these self diluded uber rank fools do as they please, becasue you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cant fool everyone all the time.


I'll be getting down off my soap box now and let the bickering continue

 

[Jerry]

"Under what circumstances do you think a westerner could be a 10th degree"

When he/she becomes head of an art whose belt system goes to 10th dan.


Here's a question of my own. Do those here see merit in having ranks at the top of the heap which exist for reasosn other than martial ability? Should the highest ranking person neccessairily be the one able to complete the most tests? Or is there a point at which is becomes more important to rank on other criteria? Certianly the higest positions in the millitary are political. Should belts serve more functions than as worn certificates of martial competency?

 

[Andrew Green]

wow... some people seem to take this rep stuff a wee bit too seriously....

Unsigned red marks huh? Yeah, thats the way they almost always are...

I've not given many red, but the ones I have have come from HOW someone said something more then what they've said.

My guess would be throwing a hissy fit about getting a red one is not going to be of much benefit too you....

Anyways, here is a fun little game, try to make a post that gets you both red and green

 

[clfsean]

Honestly I don't care... it's only electrons, how's it hurt me?:whip:

What I don't like is somebody hiding behind assumed anonymity & not having enough sack to put their screen name or, heaven forbid... real name along with it.

I don't care what you like or don't like. But don't be a wuss & hide. Tell me straight up. Maybe a brief dialogue could open my views up on a thing or topic, maybe not. However hiding behind the curtan of the internet & a faceless, nameless board gives insight to a person's true character.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'd usually rather not know who a negative comment came from, why they posted it might be nice, but who? Nope, why muddy the waters between people.

 

[James Kovacich]

Honestly I don't care... it's only electrons, how's it hurt me?:whip:

What I don't like is somebody hiding behind assumed anonymity & not having enough sack to put their screen name or, heaven forbid... real name along with it.

I don't care what you like or don't like. But don't be a wuss & hide. Tell me straight up. Maybe a brief dialogue could open my views up on a thing or topic, maybe not. However hiding behind the curtan of the internet & a faceless, nameless board gives insight to a person's true character.

To date. Only the good green (when I still had them) rep points I've received were signed. Not a single red point. Not really an issue.

I (recently) realized that none of this stuff on the net is worth getting strung out on. What we want, doesn't always happen and we just live with it.

 

[lonekimono10]

First off, I have never met a 10th dan in almost 18 years of MA training. Maybe that is my choice of art(s) and maybe that is because of where I live. The highest rank person that I've ever had the priviledge of learning under is 6th.

I've met one 7th and one 8th dan that I've know to be legit.

How?

1. They did not make up there own styles and could claim a documented line through a known organization like JKA or TSDMDK.
2. They were old enough. (A person who is not in their 60's or, even better, 70s is not old enough to put in the time to claim that rank).
3. I have seen "the goods" not first hand because I'm not high ranked enough, but by proxy as in "I am a direct student of this person..."

This is my least favorite aspect of the martial arts. The politics. My teacher's teacher says that its better to train and let frauds expose themselves...

upnorthkyosa

not trying to be rude or anything,but i see that you are TKD and thats ok, but from what you said ,i can see that you never knew or maybe heard of ED Parker, (if you have than i'm sorry), but check out how the ranking was done in kenpo and how Mr Parker got his rank.

 

[Makalakumu]

not trying to be rude or anything,but i see that you are TKD and thats ok, but from what you said ,i can see that you never knew or maybe heard of ED Parker, (if you have than i'm sorry), but check out how the ranking was done in kenpo and how Mr Parker got his rank.

I know a little about Ed Parker and I was thinking about that when I thought about revising my comments. I would say that if someone exhibits two out of the three criteria above, I could accept that. Not that it makes too much difference.

Also, I train in Tang Soo Do, not Tae Kwon Do. There is a difference, but it isn't important to the discussion.

 

[lonekimono10]

well (LOL) i could only say I'm sorry about that dahhhh:idunno:

 

[arnisador]

To date. Only the good green (when I still had them) rep points I've received were signed. Not a single red point.

That seems to be the way it goes.

All this whining about the rep. systems seems downright childish to me. It's once again interrupting what could be an interesting thread--it's a net negative contribution to the site.

I know Ed Parker ranked himself 10th dan, and so did Remy Presas (that happened in the Phil., but he spent much of his career in the States). It's been done by respected people and by twits.

I've seen people say they'll stop at 9th in deference to the founder too. I find it interesting what someone said in this thread--no one seems to think that they might surpass the founder! Still, if you need to make distinctions between more than 10 levels of black belts...

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1. When he/she becomes head of an art whose belt system goes to 10th dan.


Here's a question of my own.
2. Do those here see merit in having ranks at the top of the heap which exist for reasosn other than martial ability?
3. Should the highest ranking person neccessairily be the one able to complete the most tests? Or is there a point at which is becomes more important to rank on other criteria?
4.Certianly the higest positions in the millitary are political.
5. Should belts serve more functions than as worn certificates of martial competency?

1. i dont think that is any kind of criteria for a belt ranking. there are and were lots of people that were heads of systems that did not wear that rank

2. i think the rank should pretty much be an indicator of ability. should the secretary of the dojo have a judan.......only if he or she has been in the arts for 40 or 50 years.

3.complete the most tests?.....i dont know about that. but i do think that there is other criteria that someone can be measured by.........but only by someone that has real knowledge and experience. someone mentioned that a 7th dan and a 10th dans skill levels wouldnt be much different.....i think that is totally untrue. and i think most 7th dans would think it untrue as well.

4. i think high ranking military personnel have to earn their position.......you dont become an admiral or general because your buddies with someone (at least from stories ive heard)

5. yes, they should hold your gi shut.

 

[Makalakumu]

That seems to be the way it goes.

All this whining about the rep. systems seems downright childish to me. It's once again interrupting what could be an interesting thread--it's a net negative contribution to the site.

I know Ed Parker ranked himself 10th dan, and so did Remy Presas (that happened in the Phil., but he spent much of his career in the States). It's been done by respected people and by twits.

I've seen people say they'll stop at 9th in deference to the founder too. I find it interesting what someone said in this thread--no one seems to think that they might surpass the founder! Still, if you need to make distinctions between more than 10 levels of black belts...

The interesting thing about this discussion is that there are so many issues wrapped up in it...

1. Is it okay to found your own system?
2. How are upper ranks determined?
3. Should/Can a system grow beyond the scope of its founder's vision?
4. etc...

All of these are worthy subjects for their own threads!

The art I practiced had a founder and so did Shotokan and so did RyuTe and so did Modern Arnis...What is the big deal if a westerner founds there own style? Ed Parker did it and people who get picky about this find out that students of his lineage have "the stuff."

Still, I think it comes down to the things that I posted earlier...

1. They did not make up there own styles and could claim a documented lineage through a known organization like JKA or TSDMDK.
2. They were old enough. (A person who is not in their 60's or, even better, 70s is not old enough to put in the time to claim that rank).
3. I have seen "the goods" not first hand because I'm not high ranked enough, but by proxy as in "I am a direct student of this person..."

This is my guide to skepticism regarding Western 10th dans. With it, I can differentiate the EPAK from the Juko Kai. I have no problem with a westerner creating their own system as long as I can see that they have the "real" credentials to create that system and thus give themselves a 10th dan.

In my opinion, if one is not able to somehow prove the knowledge and skill that they have to found their own system and some how show that it is effective, then they probably shouldn't be doing it. I wouldn't do it, but I ain't everyone...

With humility and humbility...

upnorthkyosa

 

[RRouuselot]

The art I practiced had a founder and so did 1) Shotokan and so did 2) RyuTe and so did Modern Arnis...What is the big deal if a westerner founds there own style? Ed Parker did it and people who get picky about this find out that students of his lineage have "the stuff."

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Shotokan was not really “founded” per say. Funakoshi’s students started calling the dojo where they trained “Shotokan” (house of shoto) and the name sort of stuck to the art.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]RyuTe® was not really “founded” either. It became necessary to change the name and separate it from it’s old name “Ryukyu kempo” which Dillman started using for his own agenda. Dillman has also yet to receive anything but honorary rank in karate…..even his shodan was honorary.

 

[Makalakumu]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Shotokan was not really “founded” per say. Funakoshi’s students started calling the dojo where they trained “Shotokan” (house of shoto) and the name sort of stuck to the art.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]RyuTe® was not really “founded” either. It became necessary to change the name and separate it from it’s old name “Ryukyu kempo” which Dillman started using for his own agenda. Dillman has also yet to receive anything but honorary rank in karate…..even his shodan was honorary.

I'm not sure if this is mincing the issue, but Tang Soo Do had similar issues with "others" so Hwang Kee formed the Soo Bahk Do Federation. We still recognize the founder of our art, though. It sounds to me like there are similar circumstances in this situation...perhaps I am mistaken?

Robert, you've said that Mr. Oyata is your teacher. Is he the founder of your art or is it deeper?

This is an interesting point because it hints at the possability that so called "founders" are actually just carriers of other traditions. Now that you mention it, I believe that Hwang Kee says as much in his writings...

If this is true, can any "founder" truly come up with something new? Or are they just trying to make a name for themselves and make a few $$$?

 

[RRouuselot]

I'm not sure if this is mincing the issue, but Tang Soo Do had similar issues with "others" so Hwang Kee formed the Soo Bahk Do Federation. We still recognize the founder of our art, though. It sounds to me like there are similar circumstances in this situation...perhaps I am mistaken?

Robert, you've said that Mr. Oyata is your teacher. Is he the founder of your art or is it deeper?

This is an interesting point because it hints at the possability that so called "founders" are actually just carriers of other traditions. Now that you mention it, I believe that Hwang Kee says as much in his writings...

If this is true, can any "founder" truly come up with something new? Or are they just trying to make a name for themselves and make a few $$$?

I have yet to hear my teacher say he is the “founder” as it is used on these boards. He teaches what he learned from his 3 main teachers. Kata from 1 teacher, kobudo from a 2nd, and tuite/kyusho from a 3rd. He carries on these three traditions but feels he has only developed to about 40% or 50% of his potential.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have yet to hear my teacher say he is the “founder” as it is used on these boards. He teaches what he learned from his 3 main teachers. Kata from 1 teacher, kobudo from a 2nd, and tuite/kyusho from a 3rd. He carries on these three traditions but feels he has only developed to about 40% or 50% of his potential.

This is truly a priceless thing. There is none of the self aggrandizement that one finds in the West. And I think that is another of the things that separates a 10th dan from a "10th dan."

Carrying forth a tradition from a time when things were tested in ways that do not exist in these days is important...

From other articles that I've seen on the Karate forum, it seems as if the Gracies have done this very thing. In one article that Mr. Rouuselot posted, Kimura himself gave props to Helio Gracie for his warrior heart and spirit.

THAT is part of the discussion and it definitely important when discussing legitimacy.

upnorthkyosa

 

[arnisador]

The Gracies are indeed another good example. I've never heard anyone question the use of 10th dan there, but maybe someone would?

People who can really walk the walk seem to get away with promoting themselves to 10th dan. That's not such a bad system...it'd be nice to be able to identify the fakers, though.