Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

[eyebeams]

Belts rankings above 5th have always been politicized. Always. When the degree system was being formed, Japanese martial artists collectively uprated their ranks to conform with a 10-rank system (previously, many arts stopped at 5th). James Mitose got a 10th dan in Aikido for promising to raise money for the Aikikai.

Then you have systems that award belts casually because the belts don't realy matter when it comes to authority or lineage. Bujinkan rankings used to be notorious for being handed out in a whimsical fashion and Hatsumi eventually rejected the 10th degree ceiling anyway, but this doesn't matter because inheriting the Bujinkan arts will happen completely outside of the system.

If you found your own art based on the 10-dan+kyu structure, though, you're stuck with occupying the 10th degree slot, because the idea that someone can exceed the founder is not generally accepted. I would think, however, that it would be a better idea to claim godan and let the second generation of your art award higher ranks, assuming it was your business to establish a new art in the first place.

 

[dubljay]

My question is why does it matter? SGM Parker said it best, "Although belt colors may show, it is not proof that you know." and Mr Conatser (aka GoldenDragon) has in his sig "Time will either promote you or expose you."

Both of these qoutes sum up all that there is to need to worry about any rank. Experienced MA'ers can spot a phony the minute he/she begins to move. For those just starting out time will expose someone who is full of themselves.

If some one wants to live in fantasy land about their skills and rank let them, then so be it. Look I dislike those who parade their rank around when they have not put forth the effort and skills for the right to wear it, but there is nothing you or I can really do about it.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

-Josh

 

[rmcpeek]

I know a few that are legitimate and that I respect. I suspect many though, unfortunately, are not.

 

[RRouuselot]

Belts rankings above 5th have always been politicized. Always.

I think it depends on the system/style. In fact last year I tested for a rank that was above 5th dan...it was not politicized. The test was rather long and was not exactly easy either…..in fact I would prefer white hot coals stuffed up my backside than to take that test again.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Testing for rank?
For a rank above 2nd?

What a concept.

It'll never catch on.

 

[RRouuselot]

My question is why does it matter? SGM Parker said it best, "Although belt colors may show, it is not proof that you know." and Mr Conatser (aka GoldenDragon) has in his sig "Time will either promote you or expose you."
-Josh

Oh so true......I may have to borrow those

 

[eyebeams]

I think it depends on the system/style. In fact last year I tested for a rank that was above 5th dan...it was not politicized. The test was rather long and was not exactly easy either…..in fact I would prefer white hot coals stuffed up my backside than to take that test again.

What I mean is that the 10 dan system is ultimately a political legacy that comes from Japanese martial arts defining collective standards. IIRC, Gichin Funakoshi was one of the people who had their degrees uprated.

"Politics" is not always bad, though. Standardizing budo was a political process, but it probably wasn't a bad one.

What did you have to know to pass your test? Was there any new technical knowledge at the rank you were going for, or was it to test competence with what you knew?

 

[clfsean]

To the lovely person that felt so inclined to hit me with a bad reputation point for my views of American 10th degrees...

Thanks for signing your name & mentioning your problem with my view. :2xBird2:

What happened??? The truth hit too close to home?? Sometimes the truth is that 2x4 of reality. It leaves a mark but you understand why afterwards...

 

[Brother John]

Rank & Titles are only appropriate and useful if they are an accurate and consistant measure of qualities, abilities and knowledge that they are meant to represent.
Beyond that...they are an insult.

Your Brother
John

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]What I mean is that the 10 dan system is ultimately a political legacy that comes from Japanese martial arts defining collective standards. IIRC, Gichin Funakoshi was one of the people who had their degrees uprated.

"Politics" is not always bad, though. Standardizing budo was a political process, but it probably wasn't a bad one.




2)[font=&quot] [/font]What did you have to know to pass your test? Was there any new technical knowledge at the rank you were going for, or was it to test competence with what you knew?

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Funakoshi was an old man when he was “thrown a bone” by the Butokukai…..he got a 5th dan.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]As a rule the contents of tests are never discussed in detail with people outside of our association. However, the was a great deal of new knowledge that I was required to know, plus competency with what I was already supposed to know.

 

[RRouuselot]

To the lovely person that felt so inclined to hit me with a bad reputation point for my views of American 10th degrees...

Thanks for signing your name & mentioning your problem with my view. :2xBird2:

What happened??? The truth hit too close to home?? Sometimes the truth is that 2x4 of reality. It leaves a mark but you understand why afterwards...

Don't feel bad. I got a (-) hit as well with no name......maybe it was the same gutless piece of garbage that hit yours.

 

[Jerry]

Don't feel bad. I got a (-) hit as well with no name......maybe it was the same gutless piece of garbage that hit yours.

Same here... what a coward.

 

[Makalakumu]

All ranks in Tang Soo Do above 4th dan must participate in the Kodanja exam. This exam is eight days long for eight hours each day. I'm not sure what exactly is involved because I'm not up for Kodanja. I do know that it is intensely physical and that it stresses you to your limits.

Politics may enter into the picture as far as grading the exam...but I say that anyone who completes that monster deserves monster props. That is an accomplishment.

Mr. Rouuselot, could you describe some of the details involved in your art's upper ranking exams? Thanks in advance...

upnorthkyosa

 

[RRouuselot]

Same here... what a coward.

Looks like there are 2 cowards now. I got hit again.

I got hit for these two posts:


1) It certainly not as prevelant in the east, and I rarely if ever see a 10th over here that claims 2,3,5,or even 8 high dan ranks as well as a 10th dan.

Also, most 10th dans I see here have been in that style for a very long time.




2) Don't feel bad. I got a (-) hit as well with no name......maybe it was the same gutless piece of garbage that hit yours.

 

[James Kovacich]

Since rep points are mentioned. I've posted a few without messages. But as far as RR.

Theres a way to see EXACTLY who gave you your rep points and I sent RR his EXACT same messge he sent me. I guess that would make him guttless garbage as well?

If you haven't figured it out. Research it and you can tell just who dinged you as long as you have an idea who it may be.

CLF, IF I dinged you, it was blank. Nothing personal, just a part of the game of not aggreeing with a post.

My rep points went from mostly green to all red and NOBODY signed them. It was just time for me to get in the game.

 

[RRouuselot]

Mr. Rouuselot, could you describe some of the details involved in your art's upper ranking exams? Thanks in advance...

upnorthkyosa

I am sorry but I can’t. It’s not something we discuss.

 

[Adept]

Looks like there are 2 cowards now. I got hit again.

I got hit for these two posts:

2) Don't feel bad. I got a (-) hit as well with no name......maybe it was the same gutless piece of garbage that hit yours.

Wow, they gave you an anonymous neg rep point for complaining about being given an anonymous neg rep point.

Thats so lame it's funny. I'm giving you a greeny to counteract.

Personally, I believe that once you get to fifth dan (or thereabouts) actual technical skill stops being such an important factor. A seventh dan is probably no better at his art than a ninth or tenth dan. Once you start getting to th giddy heights like this it seems like it becomes more about what you can do for the art as a whole, than how good you are at what you do.

 

[RRouuselot]

My rep points went from mostly green to all red and NOBODY signed them. It was just time for me to get in the game.

If I ding you it's because you write something tasteless, stupid, or derogatory towards some race of people, unlike you who is just a malcontented coward that cannot substantiate his claims with any sort of factual information so you lash out at anyone that disagrees with what your opinion might be.

I gave you an unsigned (-) ding for one of your tasteless comments, however you gave me an unsigned ding me for this:

It certainly not as prevelant in the east, and I rarely if ever see a 10th over here that claims 2,3,5,or even 8 high dan ranks as well as a 10th dan.

Also, most 10th dans I see here have been in that style for a very long time.

 

[RRouuselot]

Wow, they gave you an anonymous neg rep point for complaining about being given an anonymous neg rep point.

1) Thats so lame it's funny. I'm giving you a greeny to counteract.

2) Personally, I believe that once you get to fifth dan (or thereabouts) actual technical skill stops being such an important factor. A seventh dan is probably no better at his art than a ninth or tenth dan. Once you start getting to th giddy heights like this it seems like it becomes more about what you can do for the art as a whole, than how good you are at what you do.

1) Thanks, I gave you some “greenies” too.

2) Again, I think this depends on the system or style.

 

[James Kovacich]

If I ding you it's because you write something tasteless, stupid, or derogatory towards some race of people, unlike you who is just a malcontented coward that cannot substantiate his claims with any sort of factual information so you lash out at anyone that disagrees with what your opinion might be.

I gave you an unsigned (-) ding for one of your tasteless comments, however you gave me an unsigned ding me for this:

It certainly not as prevelant in the east, and I rarely if ever see a 10th over here that claims 2,3,5,or even 8 high dan ranks as well as a 10th dan.

Also, most 10th dans I see here have been in that style for a very long time.

When I figured who "sent me that messgae" I just sent it back. Maybe I picked the wrong post in a hurry. But when we are dinged with messges it's easy to figure who sent it. All I did was send it back.

On a serious note. I'm not anywhere near racist. Maybe it's westerners fault (partially) that state that in the east standards are higher.

Thats what it boils down to, standards.