Grandmaster of Modern Arnis

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Dan makes a good point here. Professor Presas who was the glue that held Modern Arnis together as one organization is gone. It is also obvious that there will not be one main organization that all will belong to, now or in the future. Modern Arnis is alive and well and will thrive well into the future but through different organizations run by different people. These organizations are free to use what ever titles and ranks they choose to. Wether the other organizations recognize these titles or promotions makes no difference. The only thing all the groups have in common is that they teach the art of Remy Presas. If the leaders of the different groups recognized each others titles if only as a professional courtesy, that would be good, but not a necessity. As long as your not claiming to be THE GM of all Modern Arnis you are free to do as you like.

Ok, Bloodwood, now we are making some progress, but my basic question still remains unanswered; let's asume that there can be more than one GM AND by adding Rocky's idea of having a "Great GM" and then various orgainzational derived GMs - my question is:

'Who will award the title to these various organizational leaders and how will that decision be arrived at?'

Let me be blunt and very clear with regard to this matter - merely having the system leader declare him/her self as the GM, lacks
credibility. Having the organizations's students, even those holding blackbelts, name someone as the organizational GM, also lacks credibility, because these people are beholding to the leader for their promotions, hence the concept of the
"enlightened vested interest".

Maybe this ought to be a discussion topic at the 2003 Symposium. Perhaps this ought to become a seperate thread:

"How should the Modern Arnis Community handle the recognition of leadership titles after July 2003?"

Please understand that there is a considerable problem confronting those who would become the GM's - very specifily:
Professor Presas, himself created and abandoned numerous titles over the course of his career in the USA alone and he did not encourage or allow a formal IMAF organizational structure to be developed during his lifetime; therefore, there was no objective criteria developed to deteremine what skills equated to what rank level or title. All of the promotions and tiltles awarded were in the final analysis based on the SUBJECTIVE OPINION of Professor Remy Presas, hence the most pressing question becomes 'which titles are still valid and why'?

I would strongly urge everyone to re-read Rocky's latest post, which is found above this submission and SERIOUSLY consider the implications of what he wrote regarding the headaches going back at least 10 tears before the cancer diagnosis was made. You do not have to be an experienced trial lawyer or oncologist to see the significance of what Rocky has pointed out.

Without taking anything away from anyone or implying that someone was less than truthful, there are always going to be some serious doubts among some people as to the validity of the later titles that Professor awarded, simply because of the nature of his illnes and the size of the tumor itself. A stage four tumor is a worse case situation, no matter where it is located in the body.

One way out of this morass is to attend the 2003 Symposium and judge for yourself, who has the technical skills, knowledge and ability to actually do the art of Modern Arnis. Let ability determine rank. Professor Presas, laid out a number of possible avenues to follow, some need more development than others, but we will not know who can really do the art if we all 'hide in our small ponds', being the "big fish"!

I really like the way this thread has developed, because it is dealing with ideas and not personalities.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoctorB

- my question is,
'Who will award the title to these various organizational leaders and how will that decision be arrived at?'

Maybe this ought to be a discussion topic at the 2003 Symposium and perhaps this ought to become a seperate thread - How should the Modern Arnis Community handle the recognition of leadership titles after July 2003?

Please understand that there is a considerable problem confronting those who would be the GM's - Professor Presas,
himself created and abandoned numerous titles over the course of his career in the USA alone and he did not encourage or allow
a formal organizational structure to be developed during his lifetime, therefore what titles are still valid?

One way out of this morass is to attend the 2003 Symposium and judge for yourself, who has the technical skills, knowledge and ability to actually do the art of Modern Arnis. Let ability determine rank and move the art forward. Professor laid out a number of possible avenues to follow, some need more development than others, but we will not know who can really do the art if we all hide in our small ponds, being the 'big fish"!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

My own opinion on Jerome comments (Hi Jerome):

Who... The individual organizations or possibly those who were associated with RP in a martial sense, e.g. George Dillman, Dr. Gyi, Wally Jay. There's one idea. Another is going to be the acceptance by seniors and peers, e.g. Abon Baet, Ted Buot, Ernesto Presas, etc. Another is that the individual organization or individual does it himself and takes the heat until he's proven his worth.

Discussion topic... Definitely yes. A resolution, I highly doubt it but it will get the opinions out in the open.

What titles are valid... To me, those that can be proven in writing or have been broadly and publicly stated. Example: I have a 6th degree certificate and was publicly announced as Senior master in a camp. The same for Tim's and Kelly's Datu status and the same for many of us with actual certificates.

Judge for yourself... Not only at the Symposium but in all the seminars, camps and so forth. In the end, it is going to be what appeals to the individual and what feeds their needs and wants. Example: Tim Hartman, Jerome Barber and Bram Frank are much more into the blade aspect of Modern Arnis than I am. Kelly Worden puts a goodly emphasis on the forms. That feeds their needs and wants. Everybody has aspects which appeal to them the most. The "old man" taught a complete package and everybody has their favorite parts.

Now, to everybody reading this thread,
Personally, in the long run, I feel that there is going to be a zillion Modern Arnis styles anyway, now that the founder is gone. Each organization has a style of it's own, whether it has been renamed or not. If you don't think so, take a look at the rank requirements of IMAF, IMAF Inc., WMAA, WMAC, MARPPIO and Modern Arnis 80 and I'll bet you your paycheck they don't match. And they don't need to.

An ART is personal expression of any given subject. It can be interpreted and varied in many ways, according to the viewpoint of the individual presenting it. In other words, there ain't no 1 way of singing the blues. A sicence, however, is a different matter. If the wheel isn't round the ride is going ot be bumpy and there ain't no changin' that.

So, the next Grand Master of Modern Arnis is going to be whoever decclares himself or herself to be it. And if you know your martial arts history, there will be more and more senior titles created as time goes on. Back in the day, the title Master was used sparingly. Now, any 1st degree black belt in taekwondo is a master and Ed Parker is referred to as Senior Grand Master. (Note: this is not a slam on Ed Parker, just noting the title as somethng that would not have been created back in the 60's.)

Anybody can be a Grand Master but hardly anybody is going to match up to the "old man."

Opinionatedly yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I like the term Headmaster myself. I don't claim or use it, I just like it better.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rocky

This is something I have wanted to post for quite some time. But I know how people like to twist things around and how some are way over protective of the Professor. But lets face facts, and seperate the man, the mith, and the martial artist. For some reason people want to put great martial artist on a pedistal, personally I blame to much time in front of the boob tube watching Kung Fu!!! The fact that the Professor was a great martial artist is un questionalble. But this did not make him impervious to all other forms of human short comings. From what I understand the tumor that Professor had was hugh. Who knows how long he had it, hell I remember him getting headachs quite a bit almost 10 years ago. Maybe this contributed to some of the strange things he has done in the past 5 to 10 years, we will never know. For this reason I myself feel much more at piece with him then I did in the past few years. Right or wrong I beleave he may have been having problems for quite some time. And as far as I know its pretty hard to take anything that a person who is dying from brain tramua says as necessarilly the rants of a person with a sound mind. I could be wrong but it is something to think about.

As far as the GrandMAster title, who cares as long as the art is still passed on that is all that matters. I think the fact that Jeff D. wrote an artical in blackbelt, and openly admited to 13 years of Modern Arnis training as the current Grand Master speaks for itself. I mean it sure makes me all warm and fuzzy I think I 'll run right out and train under him. Look Modern Arnis is no differant than any other art, there is always going to be little splinter groups, some are going to be truely awsome some are going to be not so good. If you are happy with the one you are with then just go about your business. An art in todays day and age can easily have more than one Grand Master. Hell if you are a Master instructor, and you have 1 or more students that are Master rank, some would say that makes you a Grand Master. In Balintawak I have always refered to GM Buot as the GrandMaster And Anciong as the Great Grand Master. So why can't Professor be the Great Grand Master and others who wish to or feel they deserve the title be called GrandMasters.

For the record you can call ME Mr. Rocky, yo Rocky, Tuhon Rocky, Guru Rocky, Punong Rocky, Maestro Rocky, Hey Rocky, Rocko, Mr. Rocko, or as my friends at the state capital prefer to call me inmate #721001, my Britt friends call my Pasiwk, Rocky Pasiwk 009 1/2 and of course you gals out there and call me......... ANYTIME!!! ;-)

Rocky

From the book of Rock: " A fancy title and cool uniform, Oh yeah that will save your *** on the corner of 8 Mile and WoodWard."

Hey There, Rocky,

I can state that we are in agreement on the critical issues raised in the above post that you submitted. There has been too much myth making and ignoring of basic facts with regard to Professor Presas... too much idol worship and not enough objective observation of what did and did not happen relative to the development of the art beyond what Professor did or did not do.

You wrote:

Right or wrong I beleave he may have been having problems for quite some time. And as far as I know its pretty hard to take anything that a person who is dying from brain tramua says as necessarilly the rants of a person with a sound mind. I could be wrong but it is something to think about.
------------------------------------------------------------

That should be a wake-up call to some people! The timing and severity of the tumor makes it easy to speculate about the lucidity of Professor's announcements, easily as far back as 3 to 5 years before the diagnosis. Just talking to oncologists and Hospice/ Pallative Care Doctors, will gave anyone a clearer picture of what MIGHT HAVE been going on with Professor even before the tumor was discovered.

People can say whatever they want. I know that I do not discount anyone's claim regarding what Professor Presas is supposed to have told them, particularly if what they tell me
falls into a pattern of behavior that I have personally observed as well as discussed with others. You and I have had a couple of those private discussions, in the past.

Let's me reinterate some of the past titles that I know that
created:

Commissioner
Guardian
Black Belt Society
Protege
Datu
Technical Assistant
Co-GM
Co-Successor

What did these titles mean, why were they created, which ones are still valid?

Your thoughts beyond what you have posted above would be appriciated.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

My own opinion on Jerome comments (Hi Jerome):

Who... The individual organizations or possibly those who were associated with RP in a martial sense, e.g. George Dillman, Dr. Gyi, Wally Jay. There's one idea. Another is going to be the acceptance by seniors and peers, e.g. Abon Baet, Ted Buot, Ernesto Presas, etc. Another is that the individual organization or individual does it himself and takes the heat until he's proven his worth.

Discussion topic... Definitely yes. A resolution, I highly doubt it but it will get the opinions out in the open.

What titles are valid... To me, those that can be proven in writing or have been broadly and publicly stated. Example: I have a 6th degree certificate and was publicly announced as Senior master in a camp. The same for Tim's and Kelly's Datu status and the same for many of us with actual certificates.

Judge for yourself... Not only at the Symposium but in all the seminars, camps and so forth. In the end, it is going to be what appeals to the individual and what feeds their needs and wants. Example: Tim Hartman, Jerome Barber and Bram Frank are much more into the blade aspect of Modern Arnis than I am. Kelly Worden puts a goodly emphasis on the forms. That feeds their needs and wants. Everybody has aspects which appeal to them the most. The "old man" taught a complete package and everybody has their favorite parts.

Now, to everybody reading this thread,
Personally, in the long run, I feel that there is going to be a zillion Modern Arnis styles anyway, now that the founder is gone. Each organization has a style of it's own, whether it has been renamed or not. If you don't think so, take a look at the rank requirements of IMAF, IMAF Inc., WMAA, WMAC, MARPPIO and Modern Arnis 80 and I'll bet you your paycheck they don't match. And they don't need to.

An ART is personal expression of any given subject. It can be interpreted and varied in many ways, according to the viewpoint of the individual presenting it. In other words, there ain't no 1 way of singing the blues. A sicence, however, is a different matter. If the wheel isn't round the ride is going ot be bumpy and there ain't no changin' that.

So, the next Grand Master of Modern Arnis is going to be whoever decclares himself or herself to be it. And if you know your martial arts history, there will be more and more senior titles created as time goes on. Back in the day, the title Master was used sparingly. Now, any 1st degree black belt in taekwondo is a master and Ed Parker is referred to as Senior Grand Master. (Note: this is not a slam on Ed Parker, just noting the title as somethng that would not have been created back in the 60's.)

Anybody can be a Grand Master but hardly anybody is going to match up to the "old man."

Opinionatedly yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I like the term Headmaster myself. I don't claim or use it, I just like it better.

Very nice piece, Dan. As far as the bet... nah, too easy to lose betting against your contention, especially with my money involved... now if we were using your money...

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

This is kind of a side note here, but I just wanted to state my feelings on rank validity.

God bless the man, but Professor was all too inconsistant when he handed out rank. Sorry to state the blatent obvious. For this reason, just because someone can say "I have a 3rd degree" or "I am a (insert title here)," I don't accept it by itself. I take a few things into account:

1. How did/why did they earn the rank?
2. When did they earn the rank?
3. Under what circumstances did they earn rank?
4. How did they conduct themselves as someone who has attained the rank after the rank was recieved?
5. How do they conduct themselves now?
6. (most importantly) Does the ability match the rank?

So, lets say someone attained a third degree (for instance) for getting professor a ride when he was in a bind (to pick a random example). But he had been an active 2nd degree for 4 years, trains and practices dilegently, conducts themselves with humility, and has the skill level to back up their 3rd degree. I would consider that 3rd degree pretty darn valid.

Let's say that someone had attained a third degree by actually testing at a camp. But, not only did he barely pass his test, but he wouldn't have if the person on the board wasn't his buddy. He hadn't had his 2nd degree for very long, he shows up to almost every camp, but dosen't actually train. He is too busy B.S.ing with his buddies, and walking around and "helping" people to train. He is real busy kissing Professors butt, and when he isn't doing that, he tries to nit-pick the "lower ranks" (especially during tests) for things that do not matter, technically speaking, in the long run. And, if it came down too it, he could not demonstrate the ability required for his rank. I would have trouble agreeing to the validity of this persons 3rd degree.

I could give countless examples of hypotheticals that in some way or another fit the disciption of people we all know. There are plent of examples of high ranks with low abilities, and vice-versa. Plus, how many sleepers are there out there who may not even have a black belt, but who could smoke some of these high ranks when it came down to it. I shudder to think. Point is, everyone has their story. The problem with judging rank by their story, however, is that nothing is emperical. It is all subject to opinion.

Since there is no imperical way (given the lack of structure by the old IMAF under Professor) of judging rank, it's impossable to tell based solely on a title how good the person really is. You gotta see/feel to believe. And how will a beginner know the truth when they don't even know what they should be looking/feeling for?

So I think that the challange of the Organizations will be too set up a concrete ranking system that imperically judges where the student is at. And if it so happends that people are ready to advance in ranks and titles higher then what professor was able to give during his lifetime, their will be a set imperical and logical method of granting the titles by the organization. So, if one becomes a "grandmaster", their will be imperical and logical evidance through their accomplishements to back the claim.

Sorry for the ramble, but its been a long day. I hope I got my cloudy point accross. Mill over what I said, and tell me your thoughts.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL

This is kind of a side note here, but I just wanted to state my feelings on rank validity.

God bless the man, but Professor was all too inconsistant when he handed out rank. Sorry to state the blatent obvious. For this reason, just because someone can say "I have a 3rd degree" or "I am a (insert title here)," I don't accept it by itself. I take a few things into account:

1. How did/why did they earn the rank?
2. When did they earn the rank?
3. Under what circumstances did they earn rank?
4. How did they conduct themselves as someone who has attained the rank after the rank was recieved?
5. How do they conduct themselves now?
6. (most importantly) Does the ability match the rank?

So, lets say someone attained a third degree (for instance) for getting professor a ride when he was in a bind (to pick a random example). But he had been an active 2nd degree for 4 years, trains and practices dilegently, conducts themselves with humility, and has the skill level to back up their 3rd degree. I would consider that 3rd degree pretty darn valid.

Let's say that someone had attained a third degree by actually testing at a camp. But, not only did he barely pass his test, but he wouldn't have if the person on the board wasn't his buddy. He hadn't had his 2nd degree for very long, he shows up to almost every camp, but dosen't actually train. He is too busy B.S.ing with his buddies, and walking around and "helping" people to train. He is real busy kissing Professors butt, and when he isn't doing that, he tries to nit-pick the "lower ranks" (especially during tests) for things that do not matter, technically speaking, in the long run. And, if it came down too it, he could not demonstrate the ability required for his rank. I would have trouble agreeing to the validity of this persons 3rd degree.

I could give countless examples of hypotheticals that in some way or another fit the disciption of people we all know. There are plent of examples of high ranks with low abilities, and vice-versa. Plus, how many sleepers are there out there who may not even have a black belt, but who could smoke some of these high ranks when it came down to it. I shudder to think. Point is, everyone has their story. The problem with judging rank by their story, however, is that nothing is emperical. It is all subject to opinion.

Since there is no imperical way (given the lack of structure by the old IMAF under Professor) of judging rank, it's impossable to tell based solely on a title how good the person really is. You gotta see/feel to believe. And how will a beginner know the truth when they don't even know what they should be looking/feeling for?

So I think that the challange of the Organizations will be too set up a concrete ranking system that imperically judges where the student is at. And if it so happends that people are ready to advance in ranks and titles higher then what professor was able to give during his lifetime, their will be a set imperical and logical method of granting the titles by the organization. So, if one becomes a "grandmaster", their will be imperical and logical evidance through their accomplishements to back the claim.

Sorry for the ramble, but its been a long day. I hope I got my cloudy point accross. Mill over what I said, and tell me your thoughts.

Hello Paul,

Here are my thoughts. Your points are very consistant with mine.
You are absolutely correct and why apologize for telling the truth?
Professor Presas, was very inconsistant with rank promotions and there never was a written standard from which an objective evaluation could be made regarding promotions. There is no need to defend that kind of situation because it puts EVERYONE'S rank into question with regard to actual ability, until one has had an opportunity to demonstrate their competence.

I wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------
People can say whatever they want. I know that I do not discount anyone's claim regarding what Professor Presas is supposed to have told them, particularly if what they tell me
falls into a pattern of behavior that I have personally observed as well as discussed with others. You and I have had a couple of those private discussions, in the past.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Your comments merely confirm my obsevations of past behavior with the Modern Arnis world under Professor - there is a very clear consistancy in some of his past behavior. Now we are in a position to correct some of the problems that resulted from his decisions. He was the GM, the Founder and the larger than life personality of Modern Arnis, but he is also gone. So what can and what should be done to remediate these problems is the active question.

The key phrase in my statement is "...if what they tell me falls into a pattern of behavior that I have personally observed...".
There is enough emperical evidence available, if one merely talks to enough people and you have offered a couple of good examples, without names, to have me believe that your observations are very similar to mine as well as those of others whom I have had extensive conversation with on the matter of inflated rank within Modern Arnis.

Some people will, of course, deny what we have posted - so what - does that change what you personally observed? I have had expriences with Modern Arnis groupies who have refused to work with me because they had not seen me at camps and seminars that they attended. That comment was posted several times on this and two other forums. Yet when I responded that these same people were never at any of the seminars or camps that I attended or more importantly, hosted, there is no further comment. Is the prevailing Modern Arnis criteria for excellence within the art, determined by whether or not one attanded seminars and camps, plus WHO saw you there?

I am hosting the 2003 Symposium, will these same people attend and take the floor to instruct? Will they be willing to accept the opportunity to put their own Modern Arnis skills up for comparison against others? At least three people who tried to make an issue out of my "lack" of attendenceat camps/seminars, have delined to accept my invitation to be part of the Symposium!

The rank issue, for me, is mute with regard to the upcoming Symposium. Professor, will not be there to act as a buffer and shield. People will have to take the floor and do thier Modern Arnis instructional thing. They will have to stand or fall on thier very own merits.

I really don't care what rank and/or title someone is purported to have in Modern Arnis, what will matter at the Symposium is did they deliever the goods? Since each instructor is self selected, not chosen by me or some board, each one will have the same chance to impress thier peers without any sort of preconceived determination as to who is better or more skilled than whom. The people in attendence will make that decision and hopefully each person will make thier own decision based on what they actually observed at the Symposium.

I know that you intend to be at the Symposium, but not too many others have indicated that they want to be there to see for themselves who is really skilled in Modern Arnis and who MIGHT BE hiding behind rank and title!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[arnisador]

The Professor gave out rank like candy at times--as people would give a tip, in some cases. I was bothered by it for some while.

On the other hand I sat on many boards and didn't really see board members bending the rules for their own students. But the Professor would often bump up the board's recommendations significantly. The cases were predictable and not always based on ability but rather on effort, association with certain groups, or other attributes that were not clearly indicative of ability.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by PAUL

This is kind of a side note here, but I just wanted to state my feelings on rank validity.

1. How did/why did they earn the rank?
2. When did they earn the rank?
3. Under what circumstances did they earn rank?
4. How did they conduct themselves as someone who has attained the rank after the rank was recieved?
5. How do they conduct themselves now?
6. (most importantly) Does the ability match the rank?

What a great idea for a new thread!

Here's my answers for me:
1. Flat promotion by Remy Presas, continuous training and contribution to the art.
2. June 1992.
3. At a camp and by Prof. Presas' origination (not by my questioning if I was ready and that sort of thing).
4. To me, rather well. You'd have to ask others for their opinions.
5. Well mannered with a sense of humor so as not to get too full of myself. Others may have differing opinions.
6. Interesting question. I personally think so. I wouldn't accept if if I had self doubts. Again, others may have different opinions.

Yours,
Dan

 

[bloodwood]

Questioning any body's rank who holds a valid certificate from Remy would turn into a witch hunt. However they acquired this rank makes no difference, it still stands. Granted that in many cases ability will not match the rank, but that is another matter all together. Deciding how far back to go to see where Remy's tumor would have started to affect his gudgement is really pushing it. Maybe decisions he made when he became ill in Europe and knew he was in trouble could be looked at, but by whom? It's not going to happen so this is a dead end.

The different organizations out there are not on the same page and never will be. So I will say again that the different organizations are free to do as they wish as far as promotions are concerned at any level. As long as they are satisfied that those being promoted meet the standards set by their organization, they are well within their rights to do so. If other organizations don't recognize these ranks or promotions that's just too bad. Let them worry about their own house.

Other than JD there doesn't seem to be anyone in the prominate organizations that would even be close to setting up someone as a GM at the present time, so this is something that can be looked at down the road when it is more likely to happen.

 

[arnisador]

I have to agree--if the Professor gave the rank, we should (formally) respect it.

 

[JMP]

Hello everyone
I have trained in Modern Arnis for over 25yrs. I knew Remy very well, he stayed with me often. (sometimes just to get some rest)
He was a kind man who wanted everyone happy as you all know.
I have all kinds of titles and rank given by Remy they mean nothing to enyone but me. Don't worry about what people say or what title they use, keep training, train with people you like and respect, improve yourself, you will see who is who when meeting with others. Some talk- Some do




With Respect

J.M.P.

 

[Cruentus]

You do not know me, but I'm friends with Rich, and I train down in Rochester.

It's good to hear your input here, and that is very good advise.

:asian:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador

The Professor gave out rank like candy at times--as people would give a tip, in some cases. I was bothered by it for some while.

On the other hand I sat on many boards and didn't really see board members bending the rules for their own students. But the Professor would often bump up the board's recommendations significantly. The cases were predictable and not always based on ability but rather on effort, association with certain groups, or other attributes that were not clearly indicative of ability.

Now that we have established this fact once and for all, we can move on to the other more pressing issues of self development and growth within the art. It is also very important that members of different group within Modern Arnis understand that it is not important whether or not someone attended the seminars/camps that they did; the bottom line is still can the person do the art?

Holding to the "I didn't see you at any seminar/camp that I attended" is a ridiculously shallow standard to apply. After all
Professor Presas taught in seminars and camps over a 25 year period of time in more locations that any single person could accurately detail. The real question cames back to one's actual Modern Arnis skills, knowledge and ability. Who among us can claim to have attended every seminar and camp that profosseor Presas conducted, begining in 1975?

The fact that some people were promoted in spite of their actual knowledge and ability within the art is a matter of concern and rightfully so, therefore it would be better to error on the side of caution because it is entirely logical that some of the people given rank promotions and title are very skilled in the art. They earned their promotions for all of the "right reasons".

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

PS - I like the term Headmaster myself. I don't claim or use it, I just like it better. [/B]

Hi Dan,

I liked the suggestion so much that I went out and checked to see if that title was in use within the martial arts. I found one case - Ryukyu Kempo - has the title in it's lexicon and it can be either the equal of Grand Master or a title that is actually above that of GM.

OTOH, there is a tradition of usage within the American Private Schools to list thier chief academic/executive officer as the "Head Master". That is an extension of the term "Master Teacher" and it involve a "raking system" in education - apprentice, teacher, master teacher and head master.

A second title that comes into use is "Principal". This title could mean the same as Head Master or it could be used to designate the top teacher within the school, as in, "Principal Instructor or Teacher". Therefore it was/is entirely possible for a school to have both a Head Master and a Prinicpal Teacher.

So, Dan, I would recommend that you also consider the titles of either Principal Instructor or Prinicpal Teacher. These titles do not seem to have a martial arts conotation and can not be construed as inflated status, particularly if you are using them within a teaching context at a specific school.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Questioning any body's rank who holds a valid certificate from Remy would turn into a witch hunt. However they acquired this rank makes no difference, it still stands. Granted that in many cases ability will not match the rank, but that is another matter all together. Deciding how far back to go to see where Remy's tumor would have started to affect his gudgement is really pushing it. Maybe decisions he made when he became ill in Europe and knew he was in trouble could be looked at, but by whom? It's not going to happen so this is a dead end.

The different organizations out there are not on the same page and never will be. So I will say again that the different organizations are free to do as they wish as far as promotions are concerned at any level. As long as they are satisfied that those being promoted meet the standards set by their organization, they are well within their rights to do so. If other organizations don't recognize these ranks or promotions that's just too bad. Let them worry about their own house.

Other than JD there doesn't seem to be anyone in the prominate organizations that would even be close to setting up someone as a GM at the present time, so this is something that can be looked at down the road when it is more likely to happen.

Hello Bloodwood,

You wrote:

Questioning any body's rank who holds a valid certificate from Remy would turn into a witch hunt. However they acquired this rank makes no difference, it still stands. Granted that in many cases ability will not match the rank, but that is another matter all together.

------------------------------------------------------------

You are absolutely correct on both of your points. But that also raises another issue - by following your logic (and I agree with you) attacking Jeff Delaney for using the terms "Grand Master and Successor" is wrong, because, however he acquired the distictions does not matter, so long as Professor, authorized him to do so!
(BTW, I am not accusing you of attacking, Delaney, I am merely making my point.)

No one recommended going back and taking anything from anyone - the point being made was that there is a possibilty that the rankings and titles awarded over the last 2 - 3 years might not have made with Professor, being in complete control of his thoughts. It is a reasonable consideration, given the size of the tumor, but in the absence of any clear and compelling evidence to the contrary, we must assume that he knew what he wanted and he did it. With that logic in place the MoTTs, including Delaney are legitmate, because Professor made the awards. People do not have to like it, but they can't change it!

Then there is the matter regarding the question of under-qualified people being awarded ranks, which is not really debatable. Any number of people can point to others who are not very skilled or knowledgable with regard to Modern Arnis. This does present a problem that is actually not correctable since the rank was given by Professor.

Hmmm... I have one possible solution in mind....

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoctorB

Hi Dan,

OTOH, there is a tradition of usage within the American Private Schools to list thier chief academic/executive officer as the "Head Master". That is an extension of the term "Master Teacher" and it involve a "raking system" in education - apprentice, teacher, master teacher and head master.

A second title that comes into use is "Principal". This title could mean the same as Head Master or it could be used to designate the top teacher within the school, as in, "Principal Instructor or Teacher". Therefore it was/is entirely possible for a school to have both a Head Master and a Prinicpal Teacher.

So, Dan, I would recommend that you also consider the titles of either Principal Instructor or Prinicpal Teacher. These titles do not seem to have a martial arts conotation and can not be construed as inflated status, particularly if you are using them within a teaching context at a specific school.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D

The above definition is why I like the term. It does not denote that one is the greatest master of masters (which is how grandmaster hits me - just a gut reaction). Headmaster flows better than principal teacher or principal instructor. That's also why I like it.
Dan

 

[bloodwood]

Hmmm... I have one possible solution in mind....

Forget it Jerome.

Just remember, all those clowns and frauds out there make you really appreciate the ones who do have it. Besides, then we wouldn't have any body to talk about.

 

[arnisador]

Were the records ever centralized? For a long time it seemed as if each camp director kept their own records and that was that. I know they were supposed to be centralized and heard it happened but I was never sure.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador

Were the records ever centralized? For a long time it seemed as if each camp director kept their own records and that was that. I know they were supposed to be centralized and heard it happened but I was never sure.

Arnisador,

I am not sure a centralized Records storage would solve the problem. I know that GM R Presas was coming and promoting people in Michigan since 1977 or before. Were these records which would have been kept by Remy been recorded else where besides in the personal certificates? I agree a centralized data center would have been great. It still would be really nice to have one today, but we do not have one location. I am not saying do not try, only that it would be very difficult.

Train well all


:asian:

 

[Dieter]

Hi

I think Kelly Worden it trying to collect exactly that right now. Have a look at the WMAC-Forum
and there the thread "Modern Arnis lineage list or chart.

Regards

Dieter