American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[Flatlander]

Mr. Roley

My rank nor my accomplishments were discussed here by me till asked. Please go back and read the tread.

I am the guy that has continued to say knowledge and ability are what matters! You seem to agree with me on this but at the same time wish to hang on to that belt that you do not wish to discuss.

Later,
Brad

Seems to me that Mr. Roley is more interested in why a fourth black would take away the opportunity for a fifth black to reach sixth. I could, however, be wrong. He may, instead, be wondering how it is that one who has "created a new art" has the credibility to publicly endorse an unorthodox belt method, particularly given the unverifiable claims of widespread acceptance by others, as well as the lack of logic behind the premise.

The problem, Brad, is that most here tend to agree that someone for whom rank abuse is not an issue (within the confines of their own, legitimate and established artform) tend to think that the reduction of rank is nothing more than a ploy to interject their own credentials into particular circles of accomplishment that they, in fact, do not belong. In fact, it is rather difficult to imagine what, if any, genuine purpose is served by such an endeavour.

The best argument that you've been able to produce thus far is, to paraphrase: "People out there are abusing rank. We will see less overall effect on the whole by reducing the increments of rank that can be awarded."

This doesn't fly, Brad, for a number of reasons. First, who cares? If people are abusing rank in some other system, why would you, the "founder of your new artform", care? Further, how, in fact, would the reduction of incremental ranking options curtail this abuse? You have not answered the fundamental question: If, in fact, the martial art community as a whole decided to reduce the number of available ranks to their students, what would stop a 'grandmaster' granting organization from handing this 'status' out to someone like you?

Obviously, nothing. It's already happened, has it not? And you only claim 4th black.....

Aside from all of this, how much credibility do you honestly feel that you command here, on anywhere on the global internet, for that matter? You are the 'soke' of a new 'artform', attempting to establish an entirely new paradigm for all 'American Martial Art Organizations'. Brad, please define what an 'American Martial Art' is. Next, please identify why they should follow separate standards than the rest of the global martial arts community. Finally, please relate why it is that anyone else ought concern themselves with your publicity stunt.

It seems to me that your are primarily out for attention. It seems further, to me, that you have less of a stake in the argument itself than the fact that the argument happens, thanks to you. Thus, I think that the fact that others are questioning your motives here is not only natural, but expected. In fact, welcomed by the regularly reading community. You've done a lackluster job, at best, of defending your original premise. Given that, I'd suggest putting up such inflammatory topics for debate only when you actually give a **** as to the outcome.

That is all from me up to here.

To quote Matt Stone,

"Enjoy".

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Well...I think the outcome does matter, irregardless of the success of the widespread adoption of a 5 dan system over a 10 dan system. For me, the success is in the stopping of a future developement of a 15 Dan system as widespread among the general population. Now before you finish rolling your eyes, such systems already exist in many places and it to those that we point as examples of 'rank abuse'. Think of it this way. What did you dollar used to buy...say....20 years ago? What do you think a dollar will buy you in 20 years in the future? It is a question of devaluing the practice and accomplishment of mastery (as in 'master craftsman'). If the 10 Dan system stays true, then the integrity of the Dan is perserved. However, if we are laizze faire in re creating expanding Dan structures, and the general public believe there actually can exist a 17th Dan, the damage has been done to the integrity of the rank you so dearly earned because the person who chose to created such an inflated system can advertise to the masses they are more qualified to have the consumer's support over you and your measely 4th Dan. While they may be unaware that your 4th Dan would be equal to his 13th Dan, it will be of little consolation when your school has to close because you 'stuck to your integrity' in the face of commercial pressures and marketing strategies. Your achievement, your commitment has been devalued due to nothing more than your own willingness to stand quietly by while many less qualified use marketing tricks to advance their rank in abstract ways. So one must be vigilant and persistent in the struggle to educate the lay person and general public....and if taking a stand on inflated rank systems is a method you chose....it is valid for no other reason than for sake of personal position of integrity (sticking to your beliefs) and standing by one's decisions (suffering the slings an arrows).

This debate has been good. I trust it will continue. However, if you chose a position...understand it...and follow your good concious.

"And this above all other things; to thine own self be true."

The Emperor

 

[Don Roley]

Think of it this way. What did you dollar used to buy...say....20 years ago? What do you think a dollar will buy you in 20 years in the future? It is a question of devaluing the practice and accomplishment of mastery (as in 'master craftsman').

The above seems a great example of how I think people are concentrating too much on what other people think of them. It is all about the ego.

Another problem I have with it is the idea that the people that are promoting this seem to be putting themselves at the top of this scaled back version.

Again, it is all about the ego. Fumio Debura, etc, do not gain respect in the eyes of others because of their rank. Those that worry about how rank inflation may make them look worse are clearly placing far too much importance on trying to keep the respect and admiration of others.

If you think the rank system is getting silly, then just drop the whole subject, don't ever reveal yours and make people judge you on your merits rather than your rank.

 

[Carol]

The above seems a great example of how I think people are concentrating too much on what other people think of them. It is all about the ego.

Another problem I have with it is the idea that the people that are promoting this seem to be putting themselves at the top of this scaled back version.

Again, it is all about the ego. Fumio Debura, etc, do not gain respect in the eyes of others because of their rank. Those that worry about how rank inflation may make them look worse are clearly placing far too much importance on trying to keep the respect and admiration of others.

If you think the rank system is getting silly, then just drop the whole subject, don't ever reveal yours and make people judge you on your merits rather than your rank.

There you go making sense again, Don. How DARE you be logical! :roflmao:

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Mr. Roley,

The above seems a great example of how I think people are concentrating too much on what other people think of them. It is all about the ego.

I'm afraid you've made an assumption that is incorrect.

Another problem I have with it is the idea that the people that are promoting this seem to be putting themselves at the top of this scaled back version.

Your logic is nonsensical. If we are already at the top of our rank chains, where else would we put ourselves? Any other placement would be illogical. I don't believe this is what truly upsets you. I believe it is the thought that someone would insist upon an equal seating at the table. An Admiral and a General are very much the same irregardless of the title. A cardiologist and an endocrinologist are still both Doctors. Your argument seems more directed to attack the integrity of those taking a position...than the integrity of the position.

Again, it is all about the ego. Fumio Debura, etc, do not gain respect in the eyes of others because of their rank. Those that worry about how rank inflation may make them look worse are clearly placing far too much importance on trying to keep the respect and admiration of others.

Mr. Roley, do you teach for a living or do you practice martial arts for personal reasons without any thought of economic concerns? Before you scoff at the question, understand that many do derive their incomes, their very sustenance and the means of providing for their families from teaching martial arts. The ones that don't participate in the shenanigans of todays marketing techniques often find themselves in a frustrating struggle to meet their overheads because of one simple fact. The majority of the consumers out their are ignorant where the topic of rank versus competency is concerned. Unfortunately, almost everyone has heard of Black Belts and that they have 'Degrees'. So in the mind of the average shopper having no education in martial arts history and development, in their mind MORE IS BETTER. Thus....anyone claiming to be more...must be better. This leads to them wasting both their money and their time quite frequently, while the more subdued teacher is overlooked. In a perfect world, they will learn and will seek out a teacher that isn't worried about rank, but about their education. But we don't live in a perfect world do we? And it is with in mind those that are dealing with the realities of staying true to their educations, tradtions, beliefs, and ethics that I have posted my thoughts in regard to this issue. My points have been equally valid for a 10 Dan system (the NOW traditional one) as it is for a 5 Dan system in a world where commercialism is leading patrons to believe a 18 Gup or 15 Dan system is somehow better and the so advertised 15th Degree Black Belt is somehow better than a mere 4th Dan in a 5 or even 10 Dan system. If the issue of rank structure were as simple as you have put it, you would not find Kung Fu schools today using belt systems as that is definitely not a Chinese tradition by any means. But we do see that, don't we? And why? Because of the pressure of commercialism impacting upon the ability of the teacher to attract new patrons so they might maintain their means of existence (i.e. ability to simply earn a living wage).

Sir, you make a lot of assumptions about the posters who have taken a personal stand on the issue of rank inflation in this country and particularly on those that have chosen to set an example to such by reducing the number of ranks within their schools, including their own rank. You hurl at them the left handed insult of this being all about their ego. I must say, I find your insinuation offensive as much I would anyone who insults my integrity. I'd venture you'd be no less put off if someone made statements against your integrity (and let us test that hypothesis in due course). I thus wonder why if someone takes the position that 5 dan ranks instead of 10 seem sufficient, you would feel so personally attacked as to attack them personally?! Do you simply wish to alienate your collegues in the martial art community? Or is this your demonstration of ego by taking a counter position and attacking the integrity of those in an opposite line of thought? Are you no less seeking the admiration of the larger MA community by presenting yourself as somehow 'purer'? One in a glass house should not throw a stone, particularly when you don't know if your neighbor is not in a similar living condition (which in this case...you do not know as you know very little about myself or Kasho).

This debate was about the issue of rank inflation and purposed ways to deal with these real issues. You have not dealt with that issue. Instead, you have tried to turn it into a battle of personal character with your stance being anyone who takes a position other than the traditional one must be doing it for some self serving motivation. Shame on you sir. Stick to the issue and stop trying to dodge it.

And name dropping (btw...it is Fumio Demura...not Debura) will not deflect the course of the discussion. But perhaps you'd be more comfortable if someone posting on this board had such a notorious name. I don't recall your name being particularly famous anywhere, thus by your example, I should simply discount what you have to say, because if you are who said it, regardless of the content of the message. Ah...but isn't that going to the heart of the matter? If you can't devalue the message.....devalue the messenger, eh?

John Hancock
(Oooops! There I go dropping a famous name. Hey! Nobody said it had to be famous for anything related to this topic!)

AKA:
The Emperor of Kentukki (for those that require someone of high rank before they are willing to listen)

 

[Don Roley]

If we are already at the top of our rank chains, where else would we put ourselves?

:lfao:

Well, you could just stop using some sort of rank or any other sort of comparison with yourself and others and just try to stand on your own merits.

Your rather long, and rather antagonistic post all seems to come down to attracting students by your rank. Excuse me if I don't share your viewpoint of placing a lot of concern on how you sell your product. I do not teach and would not teach to make a living.

I did not mention Demura (excuse me for the typo) to drop a name, but to illustrate a point. You either missed it or are trying to confuse the issue. I do not know what rank he is, but there is so much I do know about him and that is what makes me respect him. The same goes for people like Marc MacYoung, Peyton Quinn, Bruce Lee, Kuroda Tetsuzan and Morihei Ueshiba. And that is just a small sampling. What rank are they? I do not know and I do not care. So someone coming along and saying that they want to set up a system where people will know enough to respect them due to their rank strikes me as being funny as hell.

You say that the general public can't tell enough about martial arts to tell good from bad and they merely go by what rank a person has. Well, to tell you the truth, I happen to agree. But those types of people are not the ones I want taking up my time if I ever return to America and start teaching. You can't cure lazy people from their stupidity. If they are the types to only look at what rank a person claims with no other research, then they are a waste of my time as a teacher. I want high quality folks to spend my time teaching. This of course goes counter to the person putting food on his kids table by means of teaching. To them, the more people in the door, the better.

But for me, I want to teach quality and not McDonald's type of stuff. What I want to teach will not appeal to most. I will scare away most people by what I do. I will demand perfection as it has been demanded of me. I will not smile at people that are a waste of my time because they are paying my kid's college tuition. I would rather have three good students than three hundred well paying ones that expected things to be handed to them on a silver platter.

So I ammend my statement about it being all about ego by now saying that it is all about ego and the money.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Excuse me if I don't share your viewpoint of placing a lot of concern on how you sell your product

Again...you jumped to a conclusion in absence of knowledge or fact. Firstly, it isn't my view point, secondly...I ain't selling anything. I am taking a detached look at the issue and I welcome viable input....and not attempts to slap people in face and insult their integrity.

Well, you could just stop using some sort of rank or any other sort of comparison with yourself and others and just try to stand on your own merits.

Interesting. So, if I was to say, stop recognizing rank entirely and just wear a white belt all the time....would that meet your standard?

So someone coming along and saying that they want to set up a system where people will know enough to respect them due to their rank strikes me as being funny as hell.

And where exactly did anyone say that? No, MR. Roley, that is YOUR interpretation of what has been said. And quite far off the mark it is. You accuse others of the sin of pride...and yet you yourself are guilty of the sin of prejudgement. YOU either havent' been listening...or are trying to confuse the issue.

I must query at this juncture if it is your estimation then that I (as in ME..John Hancock) am only interested in pumping my ego and obtaining money? Is that your opinion sir?

JH

 

[Don Roley]

And where exactly did anyone say that? No, MR. Roley, that is YOUR interpretation of what has been said. And quite far off the mark it is.

Nope. My points are quite valid.

When you said this,

Mr. Roley, do you teach for a living or do you practice martial arts for personal reasons without any thought of economic concerns? Before you scoff at the question, understand that many do derive their incomes, their very sustenance and the means of providing for their families from teaching martial arts. The ones that don't participate in the shenanigans of todays marketing techniques often find themselves in a frustrating struggle to meet their overheads because of one simple fact. The majority of the consumers out their are ignorant where the topic of rank versus competency is concerned. Unfortunately, almost everyone has heard of Black Belts and that they have 'Degrees'. So in the mind of the average shopper having no education in martial arts history and development, in their mind MORE IS BETTER. Thus....anyone claiming to be more...must be better. This leads to them wasting both their money and their time quite frequently, while the more subdued teacher is overlooked

You made it quite clear that it was all about building up the ability to sell an instructor. There is no way out of it. People are setting up their own systems and making themselves tenth dans to impress other people. Now what you seem to be saying is that instead of impressing people by being a tenth dan, you set up your own system and say that you are going to be a fifth dan even though you could be a tenth dan under the way things are. So you expect us to be impressed with how humble you are.

Heck, would Bruce Lee do this? Can you tell me his rank 'cause I sure as heck do not know. The same goes for Gene LeBell and a lot of other people that gain respect by their abilities. Anyone trying to make people respect them by their rank- over inflated or understated does not impress me the same way.

This whole thing about giving the public a system that even the most lazy can understand and not be led astray by rank- inflation strikes me as very different from the days when people had to prove themselves worthy of being a student. People used to have to stand in a deep stance for an hour, or be able to tuck their toe under their chin within a hundred days to prove that they were worthy of the teacher's time. Now, you want to make it easy for those that would approach the subject with so little preperation that they would be led astray by something so simple.

If I ever started my own style, I would use the term "head teacher." That is enough, is it not? Anyone else would either be "teacher" or some sort of student. The only thing I would be interested in is if someone was qualified to teach the art I created. The whole idea of comparing oneself to someone else by means of a series of ranks is a rather modern addition to the martial arts. And the idea of people creating their own arts and giving themselves rank, any rank, is silly to the extreme.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I spent a day training with Nakamoto Sensei who is from Okinawa this past saturday. The man holds 4 10th dan's but his student had to think about how many at first. Nakamoto Sensei only referred to himself as hanshi when his signature was read from a speech he had prepared and even then it was his student that actually said it. He referred to himself as soke when answering a question about him being the head of family of his organization. Otherwise it was only Sensei, his black belt was so worn it was white. When asked about rank when he first started training he said there was none, it was all in your heart. This to me is how it should be, in the USA and other part of the world rank is way to important to peoples ego.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

So you expect us to be impressed with how humble you are.

Again you wish to make this a personal issue. You make an assumption.

Now, you want to make it easy for those that would approach the subject with so little preperation that they would be led astray by something so simple.

Again you are attempting to put words into my mouth and attribute something to me which I have not stated.

Heck, would Bruce Lee do this?

Why is it whenever someone is struggling to defend their position they always find a way to invoke 'Bruce Lee'?

And you evaded the question:

I must query at this juncture if it is your estimation then that I (as in ME..John Hancock) am only interested in pumping my ego and obtaining money? Is that your opinion sir?

Stop stalling and answer the question I asked.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

John and Brad,

Do what you want in your own schools but stop the preaching. After having read and reread so much of this thread it should appear to you that the majority of people think you are preachy and absorbed with the whole rank idea. I would move on and do what you do and enjoy it but
let this idea of pushing the rank reducing idea on us go away.

Hopefully you will post some other interesting ideas and or training in other areas of MartialTalk.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Kasho]

I have little time here so I will try and get straight to the point.

Some questions were asked of me and some were just put out there in general.

As to my motives they have been posted over and over here, if you need greater clarification as I have stated earlier then pm or you may even call me if you wish.

For me I will be earning less money and as stated early again let me repeat for you with short-term memory loss that my rank will be dropped back to that of black belt (same as all my student black belts). I do not and will not use words like “soke” and always wish to clarify that I am but one of three founders of our system. (Thus reducing the ego factor. lol)

As it was put “preaching” will continue as long as people abuse the public with unreasonable numbers of belt ranks at high dollar amounts so they can line their pockets.

And those that wish to claim high Dan ranks for ego and for financial gain.

BL did not earn any traditional Dan rank, but was arrogant to think he had the right to form his own system was he not.

Stick to the topic people! If you have a legit reason for keeping your little insignificant belts then tell us! Like wise if you believe ranks is abused then have the guts to stand up say so and be counted.

Thanks,
Brad

 

[Kreth]

Maybe you should ease up on the condescending tone, comments like these:

let me repeat for you with short-term memory loss

As it was put “preaching” will continue as long as people abuse the public

your little insignificant belts

Martial Talk is a forum for friendly conversation, not a pulpit. I agree with Brian, it's becoming tiresome.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Maybe you should ease up on the condescending tone, comments like these:



Martial Talk is a forum for friendly conversation, not a pulpit. I agree with Brian, it's becoming tiresome.

Yes Kreth, it is very tiresome!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Gotta agree with Kreth and Brian on this.

This thread was interesting and had some good points at it's beginning, but it has just devolved into nothingness the past couple of pages.

Regardless how you structure rank, even if all styles did it, it would still be abused by those who wish too in order to pad their bank accounts or egos.

Jeff

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I'm so tired of this.

Why is it so impossible for you people to discuss this issue without making assumptions and trying to shift it into personal matters?

And I'm the one with the ego. Riiiiiigggggghhhhhttttt!

JH

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sighn. You read...but you do not understand. And now we have another one making assumptions.



And....they would be wrong too.



OK..that is two seperate things. The first part can't be done...yet...because we need to clear something up with regard to how many of you are processing information. I'm growing weary of this dance so I'll just flat out explain it now:

I'VE BEEN PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE ON THE ISSUE! So think about that and let it soak in.

You see, the problem is....instead of actually looking at the issue and the variables it could entail, instead of examining the various positions and impacts, some of you have been simply attacking the credibility of posters who happen to take a position opposite to what you are comfortable with. You killed the messenger and ignored the message. DUH?!! That isn't the way to debate any issue. When you make it personal, the issue gets lost.

So for those that are still having trouble following along (you know who you are)....

...I don't teach for a living....in fact....I got so tired of the dumbing down of martial arts that I closed my school. My livelihood doesn't depend on my teaching. When I was last running a club (I say club...because that was what it was), my title was "TEACHER HANCOCK" and nothing more. Not Grandmaster, not Master, not some other nonsense. The 'Emperor of Kentukki' thing is 'SATIRE'. Hell man...I don't even wear a belt anymore. What's the point...and who cares?!!

And I don't care what 'Bruce Lee', 'Fumio Demura', 'Massaki Hatsumi' or anyone else for that matter thinks about my decisions on the rank issues or if it fits neatly into the policies of the Bujinkan. If you cannot debate someone of notoriety.....you aren't really convicted in your beliefs.

What I do care about...is being told I'm self serving and money driven....because I do see that as an insult to my integrity. And Mr. Roley has implied such. An acknowledgement and retraction would be the honorable thing at this juncture.

The point is....you good people have fallen off the cart when you take to making personal attacks part of the debate. Preachy! You bet. It's call the sermon on ETHICS! You don't accuse someone of something until you have some actual facts.....not supposition and heresay.

So...no sir...I can't just let it 'go away' because the medium we find ourselves now engaging in is one of words. And it is with words that our reputations are established. Kid yourself not....if you didn't have a sense of self worth....you wouldn't post at all. And thus, my character is charged to stand up for itself and ask for Mr. Roley to realize....he has misjudged me. It is not ego...it is character. A man is little if he will not stand up for others. He is nothing if he will not stand for himself.

JH

Once again you are very preachy! People here can only go by what you say and you and Brad are preaching. Most people here that I know could care little or nothing about rank, period. We do not care what other people do because we are only concerned about our own journey. Nobody here has missed your message it is more the manner in which you tend to deliver it that is at issue.

By the way Don is a great guy and very knowledgeable.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[kroh]

Is it Possible to have a moderator lock this thread? There were some great points and things to consider in the first part of this discussion but it has degenerated and fallen away from the topic at hand.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Kacey]

I'm so tired of this.

Why is it so impossible for you people to discuss this issue without making assumptions and trying to shift it into personal matters?

And I'm the one with the ego. Riiiiiigggggghhhhhttttt!

JH

People make assumptions - it's a part of thinking. If belts are unimportant to you, then do away with them entirely. It that works for you - great! It doesn't work for everyone, and it's not likely to do so in the future. Here's a thought for you (written about religion, but, I think, equally relevant to this discussion) from the movie Keeping the Faith:

Rabbi Ben Lewis: You like to shake things up, and that's good.

Jake: When it works, yeah.

Rabbi Ben Lewis: But you have to appreciate the fact that a lot of people come here for a sense of continuity. It's not just the board. I-It's your congregation, Jake. Mrs-- Mrs Katz likes to sing the "Ein Keloheinu" the way she knows it. Tradition is not old habit.

Jake: All right, I'm-- I'm--

Rabbi Ben Lewis: No. It's comforting to people.

Jake: Okay, but I'm not interested i-in baby-sitting Mrs Katz. I-I wanna-- I wanna push people to grow and expand. Otherwise, what are we doing?

Rabbi Ben Lewis: I know, I know, I know. But you have to be patient with them. I think you'll get a-- you'll find that people will go a lot farther... if you-- if they feel they're being led and not pushed.

You're pushing, not leading, and people are going to argue with you for the sake of argument as long as that continues to be your method - whether they agree with you are not. You are hurting your cause much more than you are helping it as long as you continue to use this method of argument.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I am also sick of this. Karate masters of years past have excepted the kyu/dan rank as the offcial ranking system. This is the method I will stick to, I hold a 5th dan and am head of my system that does not mean I am as good as a legit 10th dan so with that I will not change my ranking system.

I do agree many are over inflated, but thats to handle the general publics view on promotions. I have 10kyu levels with white and a belt for each but I could break it down into fewer colors and just add stripes to depict each, but then thats a stupid business move.

The condecending attitude in this thread is sicking in my opinion.

I agree lock it down and don't reopen it.