Kajukenbo politics (Long)

[Shiatsu]

Well you know as well as I, that in AK titles are not used. That is not the case in Kajukenbo, or Chinese Kenpo for that matter. If you met Sigung LaBounty, would you call him Steve? I highly doubt it. In Kajukenbo we are a traditional art, and with traditional arts, you have titles and ways of doing things.

Apples and Oranges.

 

[triwahine]

This has been some very interesting reading.:erg:

I am shocked to see some of what has been written. Also, I have seen one of the incidents mentioned. I was fortunate to meet Prof. Kimo in Las Vegas. He was shown a great deal of respect by those around him. I also saw him being escorted out of HMAIS tournament at the Sahara. Things were very calm when it happened. Why it happened? I don't know. I only saw Prof. Kimo being asked to leave.

As for politics, they are in everything. I have been in sports my entire life. Martial arts was one area where I did not see this until my current rank. I am working on my black belt, but never looked inside the art until recently. Now, I see that no matter where I turn politics and BS will be involved. I stopped playing softball because of the kiss the coach's *** mentality. Besides it got boring. Outrigger paddling is the same way. Basically, it's this clic vs this clic and men vs women. One-man paddling is way better. So, my point is that no matter what happens there will always be confrontation, confusion, uncertainty, and many questions to be answered.

Thank you to all who have put responses to this thread. Thank you Sigung Bishop for your patience, respect and very polite responses. I look forward to getting the chance to meet you and your kajukenbo ohana in the future (whenever I get to CA).

Aloha,
:drinkbeer

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
WOW, I just noticed a big mistake. Surprising how one word can change the whole tone of a converstion. Should read:
As to Matt, I am sure that there was "NO" disrespect meant, as we have corresponded many times thru email, and normally address each other by first name.
Sorry Matt.

I read right over that part - no harm done. Reminds me of my ninth grade report card. The comments about the students were numbered, and when the teacher put down the numbers he transposed them, and "A pleasure to have in class" became "Shows little or no respect for authority." That caused a bit of excitement at home.

Matt

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by triwahine
This has been some very interesting reading.:erg:

I am shocked to see some of what has been written. Also, I have seen one of the incidents mentioned. I was fortunate to meet Prof. Kimo in Las Vegas. He was shown a great deal of respect by those around him. I also saw him being escorted out of HMAIS tournament at the Sahara. Things were very calm when it happened. Why it happened? I don't know. I only saw Prof. Kimo being asked to leave.

Thanks for some 'eyewitness reporting'. It's funny how much less drama there is when someone without an agenda sees it.

As for politics, they are in everything. I have been in sports my entire life. Martial arts was one area where I did not see this until my current rank. I am working on my black belt, but never looked inside the art until recently. Now, I see that no matter where I turn politics and BS will be involved. I stopped playing softball because of the kiss the coach's *** mentality. Besides it got boring. Outrigger paddling is the same way. Basically, it's this clic vs this clic and men vs women. One-man paddling is way better. So, my point is that no matter what happens there will always be confrontation, confusion, uncertainty, and many questions to be answered.

Thank you to all who have put responses to this thread. Thank you Sigung Bishop for your patience, respect and very polite responses. I look forward to getting the chance to meet you and your kajukenbo ohana in the future (whenever I get to CA).

Aloha,
:drinkbeer

Sigung Bishop has been an example of how things like this could be handled. A class act.

Matt

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Well you know as well as I, that in AK titles are not used. That is not the case in Kajukenbo, or Chinese Kenpo for that matter. If you met Sigung LaBounty, would you call him Steve? I highly doubt it. In Kajukenbo we are a traditional art, and with traditional arts, you have titles and ways of doing things.

Apples and Oranges.

Its not apples and oranges when both systems have self appointed cops bossing everyone around. Its more like apples and apples. Did you know their are over 7,000 varieties of apple?
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Why wouldn't I call him, "Steve," or, "Steven," except in certain very-limited formal situations? I wouldn't ask him or anybody else to call me anything other than my regular old name....and I was always taught as a kid to address people as "Mr.," or, "Mrs.," or, "Ms," (I now just go with Mizz...), and they would tell me to just use their first name, if I were old enough, after formal introductions got made. What's wrong with that?

This titling stuff is ridiculous. Lemme tell you something about titles: without exception, every single one of the most-famous scholars I've ever met introduced themselves as, "Bob Scholes," or, "Ed Thompson," or whatever--and every single self-important lesser light I've met has insisted on his (and surprise, surprise, "his," is half the problem) title. Hell, I was out at a meeting with distance students a couple of weeks ago, and the dweeb I was sitting next to had his title on a shirt-pocket name-tag he apparantly wore everywhere.

I've had occasion to mention this before, so maybe here's something new--over-titling is the flip side of the same coin as disrespect for the arts we study and our instructors. It's part of the same damn problem as people studying for, say, three months and announcing that they've got it All Figured Out...and, it's part of the same mean sniping that Mr. Bishop was trying to respond to politely.

 

[Shiatsu]

Mr. Robertson after many of your posts bashing beginners to your art, as not knowing as much as you, how do you feel qualified to comment on this?

Isn't the respect and dignity from him what you were looking for from your time in the art?

Attitudes such as yours are the down fall of kenpo karate, and the reason that many people leave after years of the hierachy and ritualistic non-sense.

So you speak one way and act another.

Your post holds no merit with me.:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

 

[Shiatsu]

I have never said anything that is disrespectful or not polite. If one cannot carry on a intelligent conversation, and live by his own actions, and words that he has spoke down on others, then of what worth is that man?

 

[Seig]

-Admin Note-
The Mod note was not directed at any one individual. It was rather generic. If it strikes a cord with you, then it has merit with you. If it does not, then it probably did not apply to you. Take it as it was meant, a prevantative measure to keep this thread from degrading into a personal argument or flame war.
-Seig-
-MT ***'t Admin-

 

[cjconnely]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Why wouldn't I call him, "Steve," or, "Steven," except in certain very-limited formal situations? I wouldn't ask him or anybody else to call me anything other than my regular old name....and I was always taught as a kid to address people as "Mr.," or, "Mrs.," or, "Ms," (I now just go with Mizz...), and they would tell me to just use their first name, if I were old enough, after formal introductions got made. What's wrong with that?

This titling stuff is ridiculous. Lemme tell you something about titles: without exception, every single one of the most-famous scholars I've ever met introduced themselves as, "Bob Scholes," or, "Ed Thompson," or whatever--and every single self-important lesser light I've met has insisted on his (and surprise, surprise, "his," is half the problem) title. Hell, I was out at a meeting with distance students a couple of weeks ago, and the dweeb I was sitting next to had his title on a shirt-pocket name-tag he apparantly wore everywhere.

I've had occasion to mention this before, so maybe here's something new--over-titling is the flip side of the same coin as disrespect for the arts we study and our instructors. It's part of the same damn problem as people studying for, say, three months and announcing that they've got it All Figured Out...and, it's part of the same mean sniping that Mr. Bishop was trying to respond to politely.

Sir,

The titles are there to denote positions of respect and sacrifice rather than pretentious marketing ploys of egotistical maniacs. Sifu's, Sigung's, Siboks, Masters who have truly earned the right to be called these names instill a sense of confidence in those they teach. For example, a patient in an emergency room would feel more at ease being treated by a doctor that was called "Doctor" by his peers and constituents rather than somebody holding a scalpel and being called "Billy." It is the fundamental teaching of tradition and protocol that allows the first tenants of confidence to be instilled in the student. We have to set the example for students to follow and we can't ask them to do something that we haven't done or cannot do. This is how the art is able to survive from one generation to the next. Now, as far as you calling Sigung Labounty "Steve" or "Steven" that's between you and him. I don't know the man personally, however I do know that as far as his art is concerned there are very few that are more knowledgeable than him. I know that if I were to begin calling my Sifu by his first name, I cease being his student and the one common denominator that sets the foundation of our relationship, no longer exists between us. That is unacceptable to both myself and to him. He has spent more money and time on his education than most Judges, attorneys, and surgeons. He deserves the respect that comes with it. This is just my perspective. Thank you for allowing me to respond.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Now may we resume the discussion in the title of the thread and get off the other topic. The 2 parties have both agreed that no disrespect was intended THUSLY that subject should be ended, and the original topic brought back to the forfrount.
I do have a question that may or may not belong here. I know that there are more than a handful of different systems now under the headin of Kajukenbo haveing been bought into the "fold" over a number of years. How do all of these indiviual systems having there own internal politics, fit into the picture as whole? If this should be a seperate thread We can have the Admin. Team seperate it, if it belongs here it will be left here

 

[Shiatsu]

Well I will attempt to answer it the best I can, although Sigung Bishop is the expert on this matter.

All branches have a lot of similarities. All branches have a head. However everything can be linked back to Sijo. You will find suttle differences, such as the Emperado method is the old school hard knocks type. The Gaylord method is a lot more Kung Fu oriented, but it is still the hard knocking kajukenbo.

I don't know the total number of different branches. But I do know that every year in Vegas, everyone is welcome to come together at Sijo's birthday.

Were you looking for something more specific?:asian:

 

[Karazenpo]

Imho, this is very tough to put a finger on. There are soooooooo many offshoots now. What I love about studying under Gm. S. George Pesare is that it is the original kempo karate method, the school of hard knocks, no phoney black belts, no paper tigers. No matter what your standing or rank you are treated equal and expected to perform accordingly. If you expect a free pass here, it isn't going to happen. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

 

[Karazenpo]

Sorry guys for the double posting, I thought my first one didn't get through. Well, Happy New Year! God Bless alll!!!!!

 

[Seig]

No worries, duplicate post removed.
-Seig-
-MT ***'t Admin-

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think what I was looking for was an explanation of how different groups become/became members of the Kajukenbo family, and how the individual groups with there internal political (read as ranking lowest to GrandMaster) all fit togeather under the Kajukenbo family Political line.
For instance there may be 15 different styles now under the title of Kajukenbo , Each of these organisations was a style unto itslef at one time and has/had a structure of its own. Now along with its own structure it has the added structure of the kajukenbo family, so how are they intragated(sp)?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Shiatsu:

Nope, not even close. However, I cannot respond in kind; I do not feel qualified (nor is it appropriate) to judge you personally or to pass judgment on the state of your--how shall I put this--martial ethics, because I've never met you. But I will note that some of the replies I got--yours now included--were far more disrespectful and ill-mannered than anything I wrote.

You might want to read the posts again. I responded to somebody who announced, after 3 months of kenpo (which they quit) and less than two years' study of the martial arts, that kenpo was stupid and here are the reasons why. I won't defend what I wrote further than that; I won't advert to my teaching experience. I will note that this guy wasn't asking a question, offering his impressions, or "opening a dialogue:" he was telling everybody else The Truth, and with a certain tone too. If it'd been a real question, I would've tried to answer.

A better argument would've been that I need to learn to ignore some of the stuff that's on these Internet forums, and that most readers are perfectly capable of recognizing goofiness without my help.

As for titles, well, I stand by my argument that this fascination with titles and the willingness to slather them on at every opportunity is exactly the reverse side of a coin that has disrespect for the art on it. It's just more male fantasy, that's all it is--and in American kenpo at least, it's particularly inappropriate in an art founded by somebody who'd introduce himself as, "Hi, I'm Ed Parker." Hell, I've got a copy of a test tape from 1984 (Mr. Parker presiding, Larry Tatum running the test, Bob Lyles testing, Jeff Speakman dummying, Dian Tanaka testing, Brian Hawkins and Scott Higgins and Barbara Hale and just go on testing for black) and I didn't hear one title in two hours. So what's the big deal? And who's, "hierarchy and ritualistic non-sense," are we talking about here?

Some of that "nonsense," by the way, makes it possible for us ordinary folks to train. And some of it seems to be spread around everywhere, wouldn't you say?

I repeat one last time: every single one of the professors and martial arts types I've met so far who deserved the most respect--not personally, but professionally--were completely unassuming of titles. And so far, everybody I've met who insisted on their titles was...somebody who really needed them a lot. I say, drag 'em out on ceremonial occasions. Like retirement banquets.

 

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I think what I was looking for was an explanation of how different groups become/became members of the Kajukenbo family, and how the individual groups with there internal political (read as ranking lowest to GrandMaster) all fit togeather under the Kajukenbo family Political line.
For instance there may be 15 different styles now under the title of Kajukenbo , Each of these organisations was a style unto itslef at one time and has/had a structure of its own. Now along with its own structure it has the added structure of the kajukenbo family, so how are they intragated(sp)?

There are are several "styles and substyles" of Kajukenbo. I don't think there are as many as 15, but I could be wrong. And none of these styles have become "members" of Kajukenbo. They all have branched off of the "Original Method" without becoming a seperate system. Their subsystem title recognizes the emphasis they place on the 5 original arts that made up Kajukenbo.
That's why they are still called "Kajukenbo" and still recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of Kajukenbo.

EXAMPLE IN DESCENDING ORDER:

THE SYSTEM: is "Kajukenbo Kenpo Karate" also known as the "Original Method"
THE 4 STYLES: "Original Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", "Won Hop Kuen Do".
SUB-STYLES: Of the "Original Method" would be "Kajukembo and "Noble System"
SUB-STYLES: Of "Chuan Fa" would be "Ramos Method", and "Gaylord Method".
SUB-STLYE: Of "Won Hop Kuen Do" would be "Fi-Kuen"

There are a few differant Kajukenbo Associations and Organizations, but these are not differant "styles or sub-styles". And all in Kajukenbo recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of ALL Kajukenbo.

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by John Bishop
There are are several "styles and substyles" of Kajukenbo. I don't think there are as many as 15, but I could be wrong. And none of these styles have become "members" of Kajukenbo. They all have branched off of the "Original Method" without becoming a seperate system. Their subsystem title recognizes the emphasis they place on the 5 original arts that made up Kajukenbo.
That's why they are still called "Kajukenbo" and still recognize Sijo Emperado as the head of Kajukenbo.

The perception that there is a preponderance of Kajukenbo styles is probably due to arts like Kenkabo, Kajukenpo, Kajukenfu, and others. In some cases, these were formed by Kajukenbo stylists who pursued other avenues, but others were formed by Kempo stylists who 'recreated' a kajukenbo type art by combining other arts with their kempo.

There is also the case that there are many Kempo styles that trace their history through Kajukenbo, most frequently the East Coast variants who sprang from the Karazenpo people of Victor Gascon, and to a degree the CHA-3 Kempo people. Kajukenbo has also influenced the Arts propagated by the students of Walter Godin such as Martin Buell, John Hackleman and Kimo Ferreira. Although influenced by Kajukenbo, these arts have returned to the general 'Kempo' designation, and are not Kajukenbo styles. I like the Kajukenbo Cafe's 'extended family' designation.

Matt