Thoughts on the "what martial art should I take for self-defense" question

[Gweilo]

i can tell you from experiance that playing even an hour of match snooker leaves you both physicaly and mentaly exausted, far far more than say a five hour hike, its no coincidence that profesional snooker players are over the hill by the time they t

This part of your statement I disagree with, the control of emotions, eye hand co ordination yes I agree, but and hour of snooker is more knackering than a 5 hour hike, they must be some steps to get to the playing hall.

 

[drop bear]

It's still a different technique. A boxer may not defend against an eye poke, because his training is that a punch that only travels a couple of inches isn't a threat for a knockout blow.

You get eye poked in MMA by the way. I had a mate who did a fight and got hit so hard he couldn't see out of his eye for basically the whole match.

Real physical sparring will result in more realistic eye pokes, groin kicks and head butts. Than all the drills.

And there are elements of boxing like striking off line and good footwork that already defend the eye gouge.

There are a lot of misconceptions about how sports people train I think.

 

[drop bear]

It's a perfect example. It's a technique that works against resistance (and yes, we do train against resistance), but is low percentage in the ring. The fact you don't think it works is because you're too stubborn to think outside the box of what works in MMA. The fact you don't understand it isn't a fault of the technique.

Let's be clear here. Claiming to understand a technique that almost nobody can do with no evidence is a pretty tall order for people to accept.

If this is the difference between the do MMA crowd who can produce consistent results and the do something else who quite simply can't then that is pretty much your problem you face in a nutshell.

In that you have these claims but nothing to support it.

I don't have to understand a technique to see it work. I don't understand berimbolo. And trust me it sounds pretty far fetched. But people make it work so they create a case for its legitimacy. You haven't.

 

[drop bear]

This is how you would make your standing arm bar argument.

 

[Gweilo]

You get eye poked in MMA by the way. I had a mate who did a fight and got hit so hard he couldn't see out of his eye for basically the whole match.

This does happen, but its not allowed in the unified rules, it comes under one of the 25 or so fouls, no headbutting, no small joint manipulation and in capital letters NO UNSPORTSMAN like conduct, penalties can be points deduction or even disqualification. So for a points deduction, the referee will have declared it an ACCIDENT, and a disqualification for what is deemed reckless or dangerous or deliberate. Nobody here doubts the training regime, or the physical abilities, or the fighting prowess of a very good mma practitioner, but what us disputed is their claim that something does not work, if it does not work in mma, and when you dont train in these options, because if you did, and the governing authority found out, your club would be heavily fined or banned from competition. I think most of the disagreement with tma and mma, is the fact mma practioners (not all) have this beleif that the mma way is the only way, when most of them have never had a proper fight, and those who have, only have 2 or 3 a year.

 

[drop bear]

This does happen, but its not allowed in the unified rules, it comes under one of the 25 or so fouls, no headbutting, no small joint manipulation and in capital letters NO UNSPORTSMAN like conduct, penalties can be points deduction or even disqualification. So for a points deduction, the referee will have declared it an ACCIDENT, and a disqualification for what is deemed reckless or dangerous or deliberate. Nobody here doubts the training regime, or the physical abilities, or the fighting prowess of a very good mma practitioner, but what us disputed is their claim that something does not work, if it does not work in mma, and when you dont train in these options, because if you did, and the governing authority found out, your club would be heavily fined or banned from competition. I think most of the disagreement with tma and mma, is the fact mma practioners (not all) have this beleif that the mma way is the only way, when most of them have never had a proper fight, and those who have, only have 2 or 3 a year.

So you have sparring that allows eye gouges then?

 

[dvcochran]

snooker demands a fairly high level of fitness, in particular significant hand eye coordination and concentration and agility and perhaps most importantly andenialin control. there was a dopping scancdal a few decades ago where snooker players were taking beta blockers to slow their heart rate.

those are the same key eliments as most sports require, getting good aerobic capacity is quite straight forward. getting superb hand eye coordination and emotion control is not, you wouldnt dismiss a baseball pitcher as not an athelete coz they dont run much would you ?

i can tell you from experiance that playing even an hour of match snooker leaves you both physicaly and mentaly exausted, far far more than say a five hour hike, its no coincidence that profesional snooker players are over the hill by the time they turn 40, they cant cope with it physicaly much after that

What a load of bovine scat. My parents bought a pool table when I was about 10 years old. We played for hours on end and we all got quite good. But you Never get exhausted (mentally or physically)from playing pool (snooker).
Sure, like practicing anything in repetition is improves things like hand/eye coordination WITHIN the confines of playing the game. Walk away from the table and you are not magically better fit.
Is it an advantage to be able to control you emotions/heart rate when playing pool? I suppose so. Just part of the game same as say, crocheting. Especially since there is no resistance in the game of snooker it can never be compared to a physically demanding and/or contact sport.
None of what you have said has anything to do with mental toughness within the context of the thread.

 

[dvcochran]

You get eye poked in MMA by the way. I had a mate who did a fight and got hit so hard he couldn't see out of his eye for basically the whole match.

Real physical sparring will result in more realistic eye pokes, groin kicks and head butts. Than all the drills.

And there are elements of boxing like striking off line and good footwork that already defend the eye gouge.

There are a lot of misconceptions about how sports people train I think.

Agree. When I may my Olympic run I had a nasty eye from an illegal elbow. At the end of the match it was completely closed. Wit a lot of ice and time I could go again the next day but I sure got a lot of funny looks. Anyone who knows anything about WT sparring knows an elbow is pretty far outside the norm. In my case it was 1/2 a fluke and 1/2 my opponent taking advantage of the fluke to take a cheap shot. Taking cheap shots up to the level of getting point deductions were common practice back then.

One thing that has to be considered is the fact that everything in the confines of legal technique within TKD sparring or Any other TMA sparring in tournament competition that I have ever seen (which includes JMA, CMA, KMA) is legal in MMA. Possibly more as I do not fully know the contact rules of MMA.

 

[dvcochran]

Let's be clear here. Claiming to understand a technique that almost nobody can do with no evidence is a pretty tall order for people to accept.

If this is the difference between the do MMA crowd who can produce consistent results and the do something else who quite simply can't then that is pretty much your problem you face in a nutshell.

In that you have these claims but nothing to support it.

I don't have to understand a technique to see it work. I don't understand berimbolo. And trust me it sounds pretty far fetched. But people make it work so they create a case for its legitimacy. You haven't.

To help make your point; Is a standing arm bar legal in MMA? Yes, just not a high percentage technique so it is never used. Legal or illegal is irrelevant.

 

[Martial D]

You picked the two sides of the argument. I didn't make any claim that matches either side.

You are the one drawing the line in the Sand.

It's a perfect example. It's a technique that works against resistance (and yes, we do train against resistance), but is low percentage in the ring. The fact you don't think it works is because you're too stubborn to think outside the box of what works in MMA. The fact you don't understand it isn't a fault of the technique.

This is a great example of what I was talking about in my first post. Thank you for providing an example.

I'll leave you to your anecdotes.

 

[jobo]

What a load of bovine scat. My parents bought a pool table when I was about 10 years old. We played for hours on end and we all got quite good. But you Never get exhausted (mentally or physically)from playing pool (snooker).
Sure, like practicing anything in repetition is improves things like hand/eye coordination WITHIN the confines of playing the game. Walk away from the table and you are not magically better fit.
Is it an advantage to be able to control you emotions/heart rate when playing pool? I suppose so. Just part of the game same as say, crocheting. Especially since there is no resistance in the game of snooker it can never be compared to a physically demanding and/or contact sport.
None of what you have said has anything to do with mental toughness within the context of the thread.

yea you can knock balls round a pool table for hours, you can kick a soccer ball around for hours with little physical toll, thats not the same as playing a match. its the concentration and emotions that leave you mentally and physically exhausted, even more so if your part of a team and playing to a reasonable sized audience, ive had to sit down for half an hour after a 1 hour match to recover, i dont need to do that after an hour of five a side or an hour of ma training,

a lot of my 8 ball pool matches ( single frames) lasted an hour or so, as that was the only way i could beat people who were substantial better than me, that got me in the England team., i took the south African national champ out over 5 frames that lasted 3 and a half hours, on a simple measure that i had much better concentration level to off set his skill levels and the longer i dragged it out the more that advantage showed. he was far from pleased by the whole process, and refused to shake my hand but a looser is a looser. and winning by attrition is still a win

thats much the same way i win at monopoly, eventually every ones got bore and gone home and i win which is why no one will play monopoly or with me twice. that what i mean by mental toughness and competitive spirit

are you fitter after playing pool ? that rather depends on your definition of fitness, that reasonably includes hand eye co ordination, spacial awareness and concentration to perform under pressure, so yrs playing pool at comp level increases certain aspects of fitness, quite drastically or if you dont have those aspects of fitness you cant perform at that level.
but if you lacking those aspects you cant perform at most comp sport

chess comps are pretty exhausting as well for much the same reason,

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Well, if it worked in pride and early UFC, it probbly would outside the rule sets. (given the first UFC's rules were basically none barring permenent incapcitation rules ie eye pokes and throat shots) And pride kept headbutts and stomps as far as i know when UFC got rid of them. Last i know UFC brought out pride, but there arent that many rules in UFC.


Also, there really isnt a good way to train a lot of this, like there wasnt before simunitions and laser systems cropped up for firearms. (and then they have their issues as does everything) And pure experience leads survivour bias and the other person matters as much as you. Its just really hard to pin all of this down into good training standards without some form of expereince bloc behind it. Like the police would have constant case reports coming back that would alter their training and usually people die, or something goes terribly wrong before something is picked up. (thats the trend in U.S police firearm tactics anyway) We can all agree police and military case reports arent going to be 100% useful for civilians and what civilians need for self defence as nether the police or military can run away from situations and most situations you should have ran away from.


And we can all agree we live in a society that violence is taboo in and that violent crimes are going down in. (at least on the grand sceme of things)

Competition is never the end all be all in my eyes, but its one of the only really pressure testing fromats you can do thats live and isnt going to put your life at risk. (**** does happen, but its not like the other combatant is there to kill you, just win the match) if you stick with sparring in house you get issues like learning the habits of the other person and using that to your advantage when you wont have that if you were dealing with a stranger. Some trends and things that dont work against a trained person in a 1:1 fight, could against a untrained oned so fourth.


And lets be honest here, if you can carry weapons for self defence in your area, do so. Thats the ultimate form of self defence. It also negates some arguing here as it doesnt really matter how you hold a weapon so long as you hit your enemy without them hitting you. Obviously while not hitting innocent bistanders. (incoming, you need to go into a isolese shooting stance, or weaver. Or need to hold your knife in XYZ position, none of that really matters)

 

[Gweilo]

So you have sparring that allows eye gouges then?

No, that would be stupidity, each month we work on a subject, this month is groundwork, in perticular this month is striking whilst on the ground, so we cover basics guard, passing guard, making space, filling the space, submission techniques, at various points we will discuss opportunities, this does consider the use of eye pokes etc, at the end of each month, for the last week, we do pressure circle, where students will spar on that months topic, class forms a circle, 2 students spar, 1the attacker, 1 the receiver who has to have an idea of what they want to acheive, at the end of the round, the receiver will be asked, what they thought they did well, what they thought they didnt do well, and what they would try next time, in this discussion the opportunities of eye pokes etc is also discussed, in classes involving strikes, students gave the opportunity to learn these types of strikes on a punch dummy, Systema is about surviving, using what ever works, when needed.

 

[skribs]

Let's be clear here. Claiming to understand a technique that almost nobody can do with no evidence is a pretty tall order for people to accept.

If this is the difference between the do MMA crowd who can produce consistent results and the do something else who quite simply can't then that is pretty much your problem you face in a nutshell.

In that you have these claims but nothing to support it.

I don't have to understand a technique to see it work. I don't understand berimbolo. And trust me it sounds pretty far fetched. But people make it work so they create a case for its legitimacy. You haven't.

Actually it's a very easy technique to do at speed. Person is on the ground, you pull their arm against your shin and hyperextend the elbow. I can teach most people how to do the basic motion in only a few minutes. It's very intuitive. Catch someone who isn't expecting it and their arm is broken before they have a chance to resist. Train the variants of the techniques long enough and you can apply the appropriate variant depending on their resistance. It's the same concept as training anything else. It's a low percentage in MMA because if you give them a chance to tap instead of just cranking their arm, they have a chance to escape. In MMA you have to pin or lock in order to submit. In real life, you just have to extend the joint to break the arm.

And I've had this discussion before, regarding this specific technique. I'm having trouble finding the specific video that was linked last time (because "standing arm bar" can mean one of about 15 different techniques), but there was video evidence of a similar technique being used in a Judo match, where the person had his arm broken during a throw.

When people ignore the video evidence (like happened with the eyepokes) I assume it's willful ignorance. I'm not going to go to great lengths to do the research if the person has a history of turning into a blind guy the moment video evidence is presented. It's a waste of my time.

You are the one drawing the line in the Sand.

I'm trying to figure out which is worse, your lunacy or your hypocrisy. You're the one drawing a line in the sand, not me. You're the one putting words in my mouth, not the other way around.

You put words in my mouth and ridiculed the outcome. You're arguing against me for things I haven't even said. It would be like me calling you a flat-earther, and then making fun of you for believing in flat earth. When you've never said anything about flat earth. Give me a break. Argue against what I'm talking about, or don't waste my time.

 

[Buka]

My old dojo was a 6,000 sq foot room that used to be the pool hall I grew up in. I've spent entire days in one loss elimination tournaments playing straight pool. They usually started at ten a.m. and the eventual winner would usually finish up by eight or nine at night. I won my share of those. But I can't recall anyone ever getting tired physically. Mentally, sure, it wears you down, but physically, nah, no more so that any other activity you spend the day on. But your hands get dirty and sore.

 

[Parzival]

My old dojo was a 6,000 sq foot room that used to be the pool hall I grew up in. I've spent entire days in one loss elimination tournaments playing straight pool. They usually started at ten a.m. and the eventual winner would usually finish up by eight or nine at night. I won my share of those. But I can't recall anyone ever getting tired physically. Mentally, sure, it wears you down, but physically, nah, no more so that any other activity you spend the day on. But your hands get dirty and sore.

Sick gig brah, swimming in that pool would be good martial art training. Also dojo pool parties would be awesome

 

[Buka]

I mean, that's definitely a possibility. But when they were brought up last time, I found a youtube video of pokes that landed in UFC fights (wasn't hard, "MMA eye poke" brought it as the first result) and nearly every one when the poke hit the victim immediately dropped their guard, collapsed their structure, and their awareness went to 0.

I completely agree with you, brother. I was referring to an actual fight. Getting poked in the eye competing or sparring really, really sucks. I'm sure all of his here have experienced it. It's just such a pain in the ****. It can screw up your night. It sure makes it difficult to pick up approaching kicks or punches from that side for several minutes, or longer.

In a real fight if someone pokes me in the eye, or bites me, I consider that an act that he's trying to permanently disable me or kill me in the case of a bite. All bets are now off. Even if I'm working and even if he's drunk or crazy.

It's a weakness in my personality and I know that. I still don't care, even if it means my job and an impending law suit. I will try to beat him within an inch of his life. Unless it's a kid. If it's a kid I'll try to slap him unconscious.

 

[drop bear]

Actually it's a very easy technique to do at speed. Person is on the ground, you pull their arm against your shin and hyperextend the elbow. I can teach most people how to do the basic motion in only a few minutes. It's very intuitive. Catch someone who isn't expecting it and their arm is broken before they have a chance to resist. Train the variants of the techniques long enough and you can apply the appropriate variant depending on their resistance. It's the same concept as training anything else. It's a low percentage in MMA because if you give them a chance to tap instead of just cranking their arm, they have a chance to escape. In MMA you have to pin or lock in order to submit. In real life, you just have to extend the joint to break the arm.

Inoki did it once is not the same as easy to apply.

You don't have to give someone a chance to tap in mma. It is just generally arms don't break that quickly or easily.

Edit. Aoki. Sorry.

Anyone who doesn't want to see a dude messed up shouldn't watch this.

 

[drop bear]

No, that would be stupidity, each month we work on a subject, this month is groundwork, in perticular this month is striking whilst on the ground, so we cover basics guard, passing guard, making space, filling the space, submission techniques, at various points we will discuss opportunities, this does consider the use of eye pokes etc, at the end of each month, for the last week, we do pressure circle, where students will spar on that months topic, class forms a circle, 2 students spar, 1the attacker, 1 the receiver who has to have an idea of what they want to acheive, at the end of the round, the receiver will be asked, what they thought they did well, what they thought they didnt do well, and what they would try next time, in this discussion the opportunities of eye pokes etc is also discussed, in classes involving strikes, students gave the opportunity to learn these types of strikes on a punch dummy, Systema is about surviving, using what ever works, when needed.

So you would still be more likely to get eye poked in MMA than the eye poking arts.

 

[drop bear]

To help make your point; Is a standing arm bar legal in MMA? Yes, just not a high percentage technique so it is never used. Legal or illegal is irrelevant.

Yeah it is legal. And just wrenching the arm until it breaks is legal as well.

Unfortunately people know this and tend to keep their arms bent.

There are even cranks on the elbow you could do if you had an overhook in wrestling or crank the Russian two on one. But they have to be pretty terrible.