Crimials are training

[wade]

Drac, I understand very well what you mean. In my case it was really really hard and did cause a few problems cause when I moved here in 77 I was already 3rd Dan and not real willing to take orders from people. Uh, they were all worked to my satisfaction though. In fact, my chapter, I'm the president now, are going on a little Polar Bear run tomorrow here in the frozen NW. Ride safe and have a good New Year.

 

[Drac]

Drac, I understand very well what you mean. I'm the president now, are going on a little Polar Bear run tomorrow here in the frozen NW. Ride safe and have a good New Year.

Excellent..If the battery on my "Electra-Couch" hadn't died I'd be out now instead of sitting here..Have a great run and a great New Year..

 

[wade]

Well Drac, just got home, pulled off the soaking wet leathers, and have decided to call it a day. The wife and I left home in St. Helen's at 0730,
it was 40 degrees and cloudy. By the we hit the Cornelius Pass 20 miles away it was raining hard and we were starting to get hailed on so we decided to bag it, we were still about 20 miles from the run site. By the time we got back home it was 30 degrees and there was hail mixed with heavy rain and we were totally soaked. Next year I think I'll just drive the truck. Ah, hot coffee and a good web site to visit is very nice way to spend this day.... Happy New Year to all...................................

 

[TonyMac]

Vermont decided to end weight training for residents of it's correctional system when two yahoos loaded almost all the plates on one bar and ran throught a block wall with it to escape.

A howdy to Wade in St. Helens. I lived about a mile up Canaan Rd. In Deer Island for a while when I ETSed from the Rangers on Ft. Lewis.

 

[wade]

Yo Tony, myself, class 501-71, Rangers do lead the way, eh? Where you at now?

 

[kachi]

There are many factors that figure into the effects of pressure on the mind. Parasympathetic nervous arousal is one of them -- but not the only one, and fear is only part of that arousal. Look at this another way; have you ever heard of someone staring into a closet full of clothes only to say "I've got nothing to wear" or staring at a pantry full of food, but unable to find anything to eat? Even once you get past initial responses of fight/flight/freeze, there can be so many things running through your mind that you jam up on which to do.

Ok, i wouldn't compare selecting an item of clothing to a life and death fight against an ex-con... but never the less, I see your point. In my experiences I haven't really thought about how to react to an attack during a fight, i've just reacted automatically and it's worked. I don't know if it's like that for everyone but that's just what happens with me.

You're still stuck on the idea of quantity and assuming that more is better. Quantity is not always better, or there would be no need for military special forces or spy agencies. We'd just dump hundreds of thousands of soldiers into every attack. Quantity isn't better, or we'd be teaching recruits in police academies hundreds of defensive tactics techniques, instead of around 15, maybe less. (I'm not suggesting that more is never better!) Martial arts hobbyists may know and learn literally thousands of techniques as they train; realistically, they're only practicing a few dozen, perhaps. Judo was condensed from hundreds of jujutsu techniques, and judo has been proven time and time again to be a very effective self-defense tool.

Instead, I'm focusing on the simple fact that the ex-con has probably used that technique for real before, that he may have trained it every bit as much and as intently as the martial artist did -- or even more so, and that he hasn't been distracted by learning 9 other approaches to the problem, so he's studied that one much more thoroughly.

I wasn't talking about everything in general though, like armies and spy agencies, it's like comparing apples to oranges. I'm simply talking about having the opportunity to react in 7 several different ways rather than just one. You say it's a distraction but I believe it's an advantage to have the options to react to each situation differently.

Well, I think I gave some pretty good examples back in a post on page 2. Perhaps you can explain, using the term that you're familiar with. Aliveness and resistance can be added to all aspects of training. Once a technique is learned, progressive resistance should be added. If I'm working a wrist grab defense with someone, in the beginning, I left them perform the moves, and make corrections along the way. Gradually, once they're getting the feel of the technique, I'm not going to simply stand there, but instead, fight them a little. I may also start to pull or push them. By doing this, its making them adapt, its making them think. I'm not making it easy because if they need to use this tech. to save their life, I don't want them to think, "Gee, it worked in the dojo, why isnt it working now?"

This link will give you a better idea as well.

The link didn't help too much much, confused me more than anything, but then again I didn't read the whole thing.
I guess my definition of aliveness training is to just stay away from the set patterns and form work that you sort of start off in doing in defence work as a new white belt. It becomes more realistic in the sense that the attacker is moving around a bit more or might come in with a follow up if the defender isn't quick enough. That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.

 

[MJS]

The link didn't help too much much, confused me more than anything, but then again I didn't read the whole thing.
I guess my definition of aliveness training is to just stay away from the set patterns and form work that you sort of start off in doing in defence work as a new white belt. It becomes more realistic in the sense that the attacker is moving around a bit more or might come in with a follow up if the defender isn't quick enough. That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.

My appologies. I should've taken a portion from the article, as that would've given a better example. Taken from the article:

Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.
What do you mean by timing, energy, & motion?
For something to be truly alive in what we do then it has have three key elements, movement, timing, and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then it is not Alive.
Movement means real footwork, not contrived, not in a pattern... on the ground it means exactly that also... movement... if the person is just laying there, not moving as you apply your lock or move....that is not Alive. In the clinch its the same... pushing, pulling, moving.
Timing is of course just that... if its in a predictable rhythm, a pattern, a repeatable series of sets, then you are not acquiring or developing timing, just motion speed.
And of course energy... swing the stick like someone would really swing it... don't stop at centerline. Punch with the energy of someone who wants to hit you. Not locking your arm out so your partner can look good doing the destruction, or trap, or silat sweep, etc.
You must move, have a sense of timing, and progressive resistance.

We're pretty much on the same page here, but anytime we type something, the chance for confusion is there, considering there is nothing to actually view. Looking at this small clip, you should be able to see exactly what I was talking about in my posts. Remember what I said about someone just standing there after they punch? Matt is making a reference to that same thing when he talks about movement. Same thing in the last paragraph when he talks about energy. Back to the punching...is the opponent stopping that punch or really trying to hit you? Above, Matt is making reference to swinging a stick. Same thing.

Patterns are not a bad thing. IMO, they're the foundation for the student to build off of. Just like a technique. A SD tech. should be used as a base to expand your defense. In BJJ, my inst. has us train a pin flow series, moving from one position to the next. The person on the bottom is basically just laying there. As we transition from one position to the next, we pause and the bottom guy checks to see how good our position is, then we move to the next. Looking at this, we could take it as a dead pattern, but in actuality, it isn't. We're training something specific. Once we begin to free roll, we can still work position, the only difference is now the bottom guy is going to be more active, rather than just laying there.

I hope that this made sense. If you have questions, please ask.

Mike

 

[kroh]

What are some of the steps that martial arts school owners (and private clubs) can take to prevent violent repeaters (as opposed to convicted criminals who have been released and are trying to straighten out) from taking classes which they might disseminate to other criminals?

The example of the banger who became a Marine to learn combatives and tactics is terrifying! It does, however, give us a clearer picture of the evolving criminality in this country.

The other thing that scares me is the schools that teach the fluffy stuff and try to make the student feel invincable. Are these schools preparing their students for the worst possible scenarios? Are they telling their students that what they are doing might get them out of a "light mugging" but not out of a violent assault? Could honesty lead to a drop in "retention" that might lead some schools not to let the cat out of the bag?

What can martial artists do to help with this? Can we write to a senator or possibly check the penal laws in our own state? We have enough problems to worry about from outside our own country to have to deal with the cancers within it...

Regards,
Walt

 

[MJS]

What are some of the steps that martial arts school owners (and private clubs) can take to prevent violent repeaters (as opposed to convicted criminals who have been released and are trying to straighten out) from taking classes which they might disseminate to other criminals?

The example of the banger who became a Marine to learn combatives and tactics is terrifying! It does, however, give us a clearer picture of the evolving criminality in this country.

The only thing I could think of would be a background check. Of course, the question is, are people going to take those extra steps?

The other thing that scares me is the schools that teach the fluffy stuff and try to make the student feel invincable. Are these schools preparing their students for the worst possible scenarios? Are they telling their students that what they are doing might get them out of a "light mugging" but not out of a violent assault? Could honesty lead to a drop in "retention" that might lead some schools not to let the cat out of the bag?

Sad but true. Many times people actually think that what they're teaching is effective, when in reality it works in the comfort of the dojo, but will most likely result in serious injury or death if attempted under pressure.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

Sad but true. Many times people actually think that what they're teaching is effective, when in reality it works in the comfort of the dojo, but will most likely result in serious injury or death if attempted under pressure.

And people buy those crappy ab machines off infomercials as well.

Telling people they can only get the result they want with a lot of hard work doesn't go well. Tell them they will look like a super hero and be invincible in 5 minuts a day is where the money is at.

 

[jks9199]

Ok, i wouldn't compare selecting an item of clothing to a life and death fight against an ex-con... but never the less, I see your point. In my experiences I haven't really thought about how to react to an attack during a fight, i've just reacted automatically and it's worked. I don't know if it's like that for everyone but that's just what happens with me.




I wasn't talking about everything in general though, like armies and spy agencies, it's like comparing apples to oranges. I'm simply talking about having the opportunity to react in 7 several different ways rather than just one. You say it's a distraction but I believe it's an advantage to have the options to react to each situation differently.

They were both analogies; analogies are never a perfect fit, but they can serve to illustrate a point.

You say that every time you've been in a fight, you've reacted automatically. It may be that you're fortunate to have a very good instructor and to have trained well. But, I've got to ask -- how many times have you been in a fight with someone who is really going to hurt or kill you? There's a vastly different energy, and there are really no words to describe the feel of that intention. Dumping any and all esoteric "sixth sense" crap -- I think everyone can agree that most people can feel other people's emotions. I'm sure most people have been in a room with someone who is so happy that they lift up everyone's spirits -- or so depressed that they sap your energy. All I'm saying is that there is something like that which you can feel from someone who is REALLY going to hurt you. (And, yes, it does sometimes happen in a ring -- but it's very rare there.)

Nor am I saying that having more ways to react is inherently a bad thing. But it's not inherently a good thing, either. It's just a thing... But, when you spend too much time learning alternate ways of doing something, you sacrifice time spent really learning one of them. Personally --the system I train in doesn't have thousands of techniques, and it's not taught as a "list of techniques" similar to an entree menu at a restaurant. We have a list of basic techniques which are we can learn to combine, kind of like ordering a la carte. So, since there are only 9 punches -- I've had plenty of time to learn them well, right? Yet I still fall back on only a few of them under pressure!

 

[kroh]

And people buy those crappy ab machines off infomercials as well.

Telling people they can only get the result they want with a lot of hard work doesn't go well. Tell them they will look like a super hero and be invincible in 5 minuts a day is where the money is at.

That is truely sad. Oh well, I guess the HMO's will be kept busy...

Do not click this unless you have a strong stomach
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/knife_danger_3_small.jpg

Regards,
Walt

 

[Ceicei]

That is truely sad. Oh well, I guess the HMO's will be kept busy...

Do not click this unless you have a strong stomach
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/knife_danger_3_small.jpg

Regards,
Walt

I believe that picture was from a prison knife fight (guard vs. prisoner). What does that have to do with the ab machines?

- Ceicei

 

[kroh]

I believe that picture was from a prison knife fight (guard vs. prisoner). What does that have to do with the ab machines?

- Ceicei

You are correct about the picture. It is really an unapplogetic look at the damage that a knife can cause. This, also being taken while trying to gain control of a bad situation, is evidence that even trained professionals can have a bad day. I know that many martial arts schools are in good neighborhoods where people only have to watch out for the judge seeing what points are called where. But these schools should be up front and tell you that violent criminals are not going to be taken by a back-two-knuckle to the top of the head.

AS for the ab roller... it is just like Andrew insinuated... People are always looking for a short cut instead of training. As for people who just want the evening get away for a hobby, Some of them will get good and some of them will be like the ones who put minimal time on the ab-roller...

...for those who truely are honest about using it...it (and the six-pack) is evidence of their achievements, for those that don't, their pot belly is evidence that it is not being used. Just like MA training. It might look good in the lab (studio or whatever) but in the practice it has to work. I think subjects like prisoners and gangs training in martial arts and military tactics should be a sobering thing for anyone who has anyone they care about. People can be a victim of violence anywhere and and the more informed people are the better.

I would just like to see instructors who claim to teach people how to defend themselves teach honestly. But then again this is all an opinion and is subject to relativity.

Our main focus should be what can we do as a community to deal with something like this before it becomes a more common problem...

...or are we just a batch of people who come on a message board to see ourselves type?

Regards,
Walt

 

[Carol]

I heard some conflicting information...that the fight was between two prisoners and the damage was caused by a razor blade.

The wounds are definitely slashes...not the type of wound, or motion, that is typically seen with a single or double-edged blade.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[jks9199]

I heard some conflicting information...that the fight was between two prisoners and the damage was caused by a razor blade.

The wounds are definitely slashes...not the type of wound, or motion, that is typically seen with a single or double-edged blade.

Can anyone confirm?

That set of pictures has been circulating for at least a year now. I've never seen much explanation of them, other than something that amounts to "this is what a knife can do!" Snopes.com debunks one explanation (that they're of an USAF airman in South Korea), but doesn't go beyond that.

I've heard that they're pictures from a prison knife fight, but haven't seen any documentation of that.

That said -- the pics are real. And they point out that knives are deadly serious business!

 

[kachi]

They were both analogies; analogies are never a perfect fit, but they can serve to illustrate a point.

You say that every time you've been in a fight, you've reacted automatically. It may be that you're fortunate to have a very good instructor and to have trained well. But, I've got to ask -- how many times have you been in a fight with someone who is really going to hurt or kill you? There's a vastly different energy, and there are really no words to describe the feel of that intention. Dumping any and all esoteric "sixth sense" crap -- I think everyone can agree that most people can feel other people's emotions. I'm sure most people have been in a room with someone who is so happy that they lift up everyone's spirits -- or so depressed that they sap your energy. All I'm saying is that there is something like that which you can feel from someone who is REALLY going to hurt you. (And, yes, it does sometimes happen in a ring -- but it's very rare there.)

Nor am I saying that having more ways to react is inherently a bad thing. But it's not inherently a good thing, either. It's just a thing... But, when you spend too much time learning alternate ways of doing something, you sacrifice time spent really learning one of them. Personally --the system I train in doesn't have thousands of techniques, and it's not taught as a "list of techniques" similar to an entree menu at a restaurant. We have a list of basic techniques which are we can learn to combine, kind of like ordering a la carte. So, since there are only 9 punches -- I've had plenty of time to learn them well, right? Yet I still fall back on only a few of them under pressure!

I've only been a life and death fight once, the guy was on drugs and really pissed off. I've never seen anyone so screwed up, absolutely psycho. And your right, it brings a whole different feeling to the situation. Where you don't know if you'll make it out alive to see your friends and family again, scary suff. The other fights i've been in weren't quite as serious but they would have done some serious damaged if they had the chance.

My system doesn't use a whole lot of techniques either, sounds much like yours, except Bando and Karate are completely different, I assume.

Patterns are not a bad thing. IMO, they're the foundation for the student to build off of. Just like a technique. A SD tech. should be used as a base to expand your defense. In BJJ, my inst. has us train a pin flow series, moving from one position to the next. The person on the bottom is basically just laying there. As we transition from one position to the next, we pause and the bottom guy checks to see how good our position is, then we move to the next. Looking at this, we could take it as a dead pattern, but in actuality, it isn't. We're training something specific. Once we begin to free roll, we can still work position, the only difference is now the bottom guy is going to be more active, rather than just laying there.

I hope that this made sense. If you have questions, please ask.

Mike

I agree with you 100% on this statement. Patterns are an excellent way for students to learn how a technique should be performed and then as they progress adding more resistance and 'aliveness' brings a realistic view point to their training, that's how we do it anyway.

 

[KenpoTex]

I heard some conflicting information...that the fight was between two prisoners and the damage was caused by a razor blade.

The wounds are definitely slashes...not the type of wound, or motion, that is typically seen with a single or double-edged blade.

Can anyone confirm?

The version I heard was that the guy in the pics was/is a LEO who was involved in a fight/attack "on the street."
Who knows...

I do agree that the wounds look consistent with something like a box-cutter or razor-blade.