What art is best for street fights?

[Steve]

There was another thread a while back where Bill workshopped some of this same material. I think the crux of the matter is still risk and a presumption of intent.

World Jiu-Jitsu Champion Killed

Just came across this news. This news makes me think of sports vs self defense when people wonder what the difference is. There are multiple stories about what happened but the end result is the same a lost of life at age 33.

www.martialtalk.com

 

[Buka]

I think maybe you have more ammo than you need for that.

That was funny!

 

[mrpatapon]

This question, along with that thread that was deleted about whether dirty tactics like eye biting and groin kicking against a trained fighter, is one of the most overused topic in all of martial arts discussion.

Usually the typical response to these discussion are:
1) The best martial arts for the street is whatever the answerer happens to train in.
2) A diplomatic answer where they'll say something like "there's no one best martial arts or ultimate martial arts that can beat all" or "every martial arts has a small piece of the puzzle!"
3) Or in this case the answer is "Don't get itno street fights, stupid." (Which I agree with)

It's fascinating how even after decades of discussion no one has come up with an empirical way to answer the question of which martial arts is best for the streets. It's all just subjective answers or theorizing.

I think one of the problems with these kind of discussion is that we don't have a solid definition of what exactly is a "street fight"?

Is it litrerally any type of fighting that occurs on the streets? Are firefights that happens on the streets included? Are we fighting some random jerk, a gang of criminals, or some super roided freak of nature?

I remember a while back in a different thread that someone described street fighting as this fantasy sport where every technique you know how to do works and everything else does not. That fantasy allows you to claim that your martial arts is the best while other don't work without having to actually proof or test if it is true.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think one of the problems with these kind of discussion is that we don't have a solid definition of what exactly is a "street fight"?

Famous quote from Bill Clinton: “It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Questioning the definition of a street fight is the online martial arts community version of that question.

In the case of both questions, the asker knows what the answer is. But we ask stuff like that in order to stall or change the original question into something we'd rather address than the one that was asked.

In the context of martial arts training, a street fight is one-on-one fight between two unarmed people. You know it, I know it, everyone else here knows it. As soon as weapons and multiple attackers are involved, we need to be talking about the best firearms to buy, not the best martial art.

 

[marvin8]

This question, along with that thread that was deleted about whether dirty tactics like eye biting and groin kicking against a trained fighter, is one of the most overused topic in all of martial arts discussion.

Usually the typical response to these discussion are:
1) The best martial arts for the street is whatever the answerer happens to train in.

Then, an atypical answer was given in my post #41.

2) A diplomatic answer where they'll say something like "there's no one best martial arts or ultimate martial arts that can beat all" or "every martial arts has a small piece of the puzzle!"

Both those answers may be considered political answers, not answering the questioner's intent.

3) Or in this case the answer is "Don't get itno street fights, stupid." (Which I agree with)

It depends on the definition of street fight. If we agree to use a broader definition for street fight, it may be an easier discussion. Also, who is asking a hooligan or "people who are 'interested' in martial arts?"

It's fascinating how even after decades of discussion no one has come up with an empirical way to answer the question of which martial arts is best for the streets. It's all just subjective answers or theorizing.

Icy Mike and Matt Thornton has in my post #41. There is empirical evidence of mechanics, techniques, training methods, strategies and tactics that work and transcend styles and venues. (I don't agree with everything either one of them say.)

I think one of the problems with these kind of discussion is that we don't have a solid definition of what exactly is a "street fight"?

Is it litrerally any type of fighting that occurs on the streets? Are firefights that happens on the streets included? Are we fighting some random jerk, a gang of criminals, or some super roided freak of nature?

I remember a while back in a different thread that someone described street fighting as this fantasy sport where every technique you know how to do works and everything else does not. That fantasy allows you to claim that your martial arts is the best while other don't work without having to actually proof or test if it is true.

A more interesting, valuable discussion may occur if the parties agreed on definitions and not to use informal fallacies—whether they agree on a topic or not.

Some common definitions (at least in the U.S.):

a fight - To contend in battle or physical combat.

street fight - An unsanctioned and usually illegal fight in a street.

self-defense - The act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative.

mutual combat - Two individuals intentionally and consensually engage in a fair fight, while not hurting bystanders or damaging property.

initial aggressor - A person loses the right to defend themselves from an attack and becomes an initial aggressor when they are the first to physically attack another person or initiate a fight by threatening to physically attack the other person.

involuntary manslaughter - The unintentional killing of another person.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Some common definitions (at least in the U.S.):

I think we need to come to an agreement on the definition of terms, and then the admins can pin it in a place where everyone can easily see it.

Should it be necessary? No, but it is. This will (maybe) stop or reduce the progress-killing interjections, such as "Define street fight," and so forth.

street fight - An unsanctioned and usually illegal fight in a street.

I would also suggest when someone says "street fight," the presumption should be that it's one-on-one and unarmed, unless the person using the term mentions weapons or multiple attackers.

Whether it's self-defense or two mutual aggressors with ego problems is irrelevant to the question "Which MA is most effective in a street fight?"

Yes, you got yourself into a situation that you shouldn't have if you're one of the mutual aggressors. But regardless of how you got into that situation, you're there now - and the reason you're in that situation has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a particular martial art is going to be effective.

 

[drop bear]

This question, along with that thread that was deleted about whether dirty tactics like eye biting and groin kicking against a trained fighter, is one of the most overused topic in all of martial arts discussion.

Usually the typical response to these discussion are:
1) The best martial arts for the street is whatever the answerer happens to train in.
2) A diplomatic answer where they'll say something like "there's no one best martial arts or ultimate martial arts that can beat all" or "every martial arts has a small piece of the puzzle!"
3) Or in this case the answer is "Don't get itno street fights, stupid." (Which I agree with)

It's fascinating how even after decades of discussion no one has come up with an empirical way to answer the question of which martial arts is best for the streets. It's all just subjective answers or theorizing.

I think one of the problems with these kind of discussion is that we don't have a solid definition of what exactly is a "street fight"?

Is it litrerally any type of fighting that occurs on the streets? Are firefights that happens on the streets included? Are we fighting some random jerk, a gang of criminals, or some super roided freak of nature?

I remember a while back in a different thread that someone described street fighting as this fantasy sport where every technique you know how to do works and everything else does not. That fantasy allows you to claim that your martial arts is the best while other don't work without having to actually proof or test if it is true.

There is an advertising or political term called a weasel word.

Street fighting, self defence are weasel words.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That was funny!

Even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

I personally don't think there is a magic one pill solution to self defense. Most styles are good in their respected ranges of fighting. But in my opinion for total self defense in today's world, you need a mix of capabilities. I'm not saying to jump ship from your main style. But cross train for different situations. Sometimes you can do that in your own style too. So you need punching range skills, kicking range, trapping, grappling, and weapons. That sounds like alot but it's not too hard to do, become competent in all ranges but specialize in one. Some karate have stand up grappling in their curriculum already same for some tkd and kung fu. The original Gracie jiu jitsu had basic striking, and judo has atemi waza. So yeah get proficient in all ranges is your best bet in my opinion.

 

[drop bear]

The MMA concept adapted for weapons and weapon retention.

The task based games concept. Which is a method of drilling techniques so they are more intuitive.

And the point of this is getting bang for buck. You want a system that is going to give you high percentage techniques that have been developed by guys who have used them at a high level. And then you want to train those techniques in an efficient and retain able manner.

And you want to be able to pick up that system and take it to other system to train with subject matter experts and have at least a working knowledge of what they are on about.

And you want to be able to change the priorities to suit the training or to suit the real life situation.

That way you are not making many sacrifices. (Being too deadly to spar. Or not getting the developmental benefits)

And you are getting a viable system of beating people up.

And you can pretty much find a close enough version of this in any decent combat sports gym.

Then from there you can direct your own development as you see fit.

 

[HighKick]

The MMA concept adapted for weapons and weapon retention.

The task based games concept. Which is a method of drilling techniques so they are more intuitive.

And the point of this is getting bang for buck. You want a system that is going to give you high percentage techniques that have been developed by guys who have used them at a high level. And then you want to train those techniques in an efficient and retain able manner.

And you want to be able to pick up that system and take it to other system to train with subject matter experts and have at least a working knowledge of what they are on about.
h
And you want to be able to change the priorities to suit the training or to suit the real life situation.

That way you are not making many sacrifices. (Being too deadly to spar. Or not getting the developmental benefits)

And you are getting a viable system of beating people up.

And you can pretty much find a close enough version of this in any decent combat sports gym.

Then from there you can direct your own development as you see fit.

To me videos are like learning to spell potato when you have never seen a potato.
You can learn what a potato is first, then how to spell it second, or learn how to spell it first then learn about the savory yummyness of good spuds. Like potato - potatoh. Same/same, so neither is explicitly wrong.
I know, it is a strange analogy, but I hope it makes my point.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Asking what art is best for street fights is like asking what's the best sports team, every year it's different.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Asking what art is best for street fights is like asking what's the best sports team, every year it's different.

It depends on who you're fighting. "Striker" and "grappler," in my opinion, doesn't necessarily mean that someone is trained in one of those. Even people who are untrained will gravitate towards one or the other. And generally speaking, striking arts training assumes you're fighting someone who prefers to strike, and grappling arts training assumes you're fighting someone who prefers to grapple.

If you can control the tempo and make the other guy fight your fight (and not give in to fighting his or her fight), that's probably going to be the single most important factor in who wins. Even if you're trained and the other guy isn't.