The sparring Thread.

[jks9199]

It is almost as if the dynamics of a fight and the dynamics of a real predatory self defense situation are different.

Exactly. A sparring match is dynamically different from a Monkey Dance fight (though, depending on egos, there might be aspects present), and a Monkey Dance is very different in dynamics from a predatory attack.

Watched a video on random knife attacks and they were not like fights. Those attacks were 100% committed.

Now the question becomes, how do you prepare for one and not affect the other? Is it possible to be good at fighting and self defense or are the two mutually exclusive?

So far, what im distilling from this is that someone who does a competitive art that does lots of sparring, should be ok when it comes to more ego fueled situations such as pissing contests at a bar over spilt milk or girls. It seams that when it comes to predatory or asocial violence that things shake apart. HMM much to think of. Off to youtube to watch more fight vids!!

You're starting to figure something out. But, remember, most "attacks" that end up on video are either caught by accident, or not true attacks. You might look into Rory Miller's books Meditations on Violence and Facing Violence, along with Bruce Siddle's Sharpening the Warrior's Edge, Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear, some of Loren Christensen's stuff, Mark MacYoung's stuff, and more...

 

[MJS]

That's a good answere, but what if your assailant also has MMA training then what? While I agree most in mma are not that kind of person, it is popular as is boxing with the underclass in deep urban areas. (at least around here) So what then?

This is the reason why I don't want to assume that we'll never have to defend ourselves physically or that the person we face, will be an unskilled, fat blob. Sure, we can avoid certain areas, places, etc. But that may not always be possible. I've had some jobs in some big cities here, but sometimes, when you need a job, you can't control those things. Furthermore, living in a nice area, doesn't mean that we're free and safe from violence. I live in a small town with a fairly low crime rate, yet we've had bank robberies, purse snatchings, etc. FWIW though, I've avoided and/or talked my way out of far more situations, than I've physically been in, and that goes for when I worked in the prison as well.

MMA isn't going anywhere. Like I've said, you have guys who train in MMA gyms, and you have the wanna-be yahoos, who mimic what they see on tv. A guy like Tank, AFAIK, doesn't have any formal MA training, but was more of a street fighter, is someone you possibly could face.

I do agree with Tony D. though. So many times, we hear the 'bad' answer, as an excuse. Hell, as a Kenpo guy, I've heard it countless times. Of course, my counter to the 'deadly' stuff, is...we, as martial artists, should be able to tailor our response accordingly. While I see nothing wrong with the 'deadly' or dirty tricks, if that's ALL you have in your toolbox, well, IMO, that means that you missed a lesson somewhere. His 'good' answer he gave...well, sadly, many teachers don't preach that like they should. All of that stuff is just as important, as the kata, the SD, the punches, kicks, etc.

 

[MJS]

Me personally im not to worried about fighting in bars and such as I don't go to bars and rarely if ever drink. It is almost as if the dynamics of a fight and the dynamics of a real predatory self defense situation are different.

Watched a video on random knife attacks and they were not like fights. Those attacks were 100% committed.

Now the question becomes, how do you prepare for one and not affect the other? Is it possible to be good at fighting and self defense or are the two mutually exclusive?

So far, what im distilling from this is that someone who does a competitive art that does lots of sparring, should be ok when it comes to more ego fueled situations such as pissing contests at a bar over spilt milk or girls. It seams that when it comes to predatory or asocial violence that things shake apart. HMM much to think of. Off to youtube to watch more fight vids!!

As you know, there are differences between the 2...sparring and SD and what we can do in each. Oddly enough, a few weeks ago when I was in class, the guy I was sparring started doing what I took as a few 'dick moves' which sort of pissed me off...lol. Anyways, during this exchange, he was close enough, and I grabbed him in a headlock. Of course, I got the lecture from my teacher, etc, and we continued on with the match. Sure, in that short moment, SD snuck into my sparring.

Like I said...it has it's pros and cons. If you feel that your training is going to benefit from it, then do it. That might not be the popular answer, but in the end, you're the one that's training it. If someone else doesn't wish to do it, that's fine.

 

[ballen0351]

Then you should go with the things you can't use in sparring. Head butting, eye gouging, fish hooking, groin strikes, and what ever else not permitted. They won't stop a fight but from understanding these tecs are meant to slow or interrupt a person rhythm or even balance. Didn't even say anything about slapping the ear canal. I wont do it in sparring but if I had too I would. .

We had an opposite situation yesterday. Im a police officer and we had inservice training yesterday. Our Chief is big into BJJ so for part of the training he had some BJJ guy come into to teach some BJJ. He does this every year and I keep telling him its pointless you cant learn anything useful in a two hour class once a year. The only upside I see is its an exposure to get people to think about seeking more training on their own. Anyway we are going through the class and this teacher is showing an escape from a standing guillotine choke. So he says with one arm reach over the shoulder of the attacker, place your other hand on his opposite hip push your body to the side then grab his closest leg at the knee lift him up and fall into side control then pop your head out. Well Im watching this and watching officers fall and bash there heads into the mat or just cant figure it out. So as a Defensive tactics instructor I stop the class and offer an alternative. I say if you end up in a standing choke like this reach up between the attackers legs and destroy his groin. Much easier to do, more instinctual and everyone understood it. Im sure his method works well in MMA or NAGA which is where he competes but for cops on the street its just not practical. I spoke with the instructor after class and he said he doesnt fight in the street or really train for that so it never even dawned on him to go for the groin. He also was teaching a few chokes in class that are totally against our General orders that I had to tell everyone after class not to use unless they have no other choice and they are in serious danger.

 

[TKDTony2179]

We had an opposite situation yesterday. Im a police officer and we had inservice training yesterday. Our Chief is big into BJJ so for part of the training he had some BJJ guy come into to teach some BJJ. He does this every year and I keep telling him its pointless you cant learn anything useful in a two hour class once a year. The only upside I see is its an exposure to get people to think about seeking more training on their own. Anyway we are going through the class and this teacher is showing an escape from a standing guillotine choke. So he says with one arm reach over the shoulder of the attacker, place your other hand on his opposite hip push your body to the side then grab his closest leg at the knee lift him up and fall into side control then pop your head out. Well Im watching this and watching officers fall and bash there heads into the mat or just cant figure it out. So as a Defensive tactics instructor I stop the class and offer an alternative. I say if you end up in a standing choke like this reach up between the attackers legs and destroy his groin. Much easier to do, more instinctual and everyone understood it. Im sure his method works well in MMA or NAGA which is where he competes but for cops on the street its just not practical. I spoke with the instructor after class and he said he doesnt fight in the street or really train for that so it never even dawned on him to go for the groin. He also was teaching a few chokes in class that are totally against our General orders that I had to tell everyone after class not to use unless they have no other choice and they are in serious danger.

As I was reading this I was just thinking teaching cops to fall on their head would be a no no. Glad you said something about groin strikes. Also if you are a cop and you end up in a gullitine choke it something you did wrong to end there.

 

[ballen0351]

. Also if you are a cop and you end up in a gullitine choke it something you did wrong to end there.

The only way I could see it happen is if your bent down cuffing someone and his buddy comes over and grabs you in the guillitine. Kinda rare I would think. I have ended up with a guy on my back trying to rear naked choke me. Same situation I was cuffing his cousin and he came up behind me.

 

[MJS]

We had an opposite situation yesterday. Im a police officer and we had inservice training yesterday. Our Chief is big into BJJ so for part of the training he had some BJJ guy come into to teach some BJJ. He does this every year and I keep telling him its pointless you cant learn anything useful in a two hour class once a year. The only upside I see is its an exposure to get people to think about seeking more training on their own. Anyway we are going through the class and this teacher is showing an escape from a standing guillotine choke. So he says with one arm reach over the shoulder of the attacker, place your other hand on his opposite hip push your body to the side then grab his closest leg at the knee lift him up and fall into side control then pop your head out. Well Im watching this and watching officers fall and bash there heads into the mat or just cant figure it out. So as a Defensive tactics instructor I stop the class and offer an alternative. I say if you end up in a standing choke like this reach up between the attackers legs and destroy his groin. Much easier to do, more instinctual and everyone understood it. Im sure his method works well in MMA or NAGA which is where he competes but for cops on the street its just not practical. I spoke with the instructor after class and he said he doesnt fight in the street or really train for that so it never even dawned on him to go for the groin. He also was teaching a few chokes in class that are totally against our General orders that I had to tell everyone after class not to use unless they have no other choice and they are in serious danger.

Sounds like you gave a much more practical, simple, and effective method! OTOH, this is why I tend to say that people will fall back on what they know.

 

[CNida]

We had an opposite situation yesterday. Im a police officer and we had inservice training yesterday. Our Chief is big into BJJ so for part of the training he had some BJJ guy come into to teach some BJJ. He does this every year and I keep telling him its pointless you cant learn anything useful in a two hour class once a year. The only upside I see is its an exposure to get people to think about seeking more training on their own. Anyway we are going through the class and this teacher is showing an escape from a standing guillotine choke. So he says with one arm reach over the shoulder of the attacker, place your other hand on his opposite hip push your body to the side then grab his closest leg at the knee lift him up and fall into side control then pop your head out. Well Im watching this and watching officers fall and bash there heads into the mat or just cant figure it out. So as a Defensive tactics instructor I stop the class and offer an alternative. I say if you end up in a standing choke like this reach up between the attackers legs and destroy his groin. Much easier to do, more instinctual and everyone understood it. Im sure his method works well in MMA or NAGA which is where he competes but for cops on the street its just not practical. I spoke with the instructor after class and he said he doesnt fight in the street or really train for that so it never even dawned on him to go for the groin. He also was teaching a few chokes in class that are totally against our General orders that I had to tell everyone after class not to use unless they have no other choice and they are in serious danger.

Good example, there. I like it.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

 

[TKDTony2179]

Ok here comes the can of worms. Having switched from mma to Bujinkan taijutsu one of the hardest things im having to accept is there is no sparring. They have randori but it isn't like sparring its a whole different animal.

I know that Chris parker and others will chime in and say that Sparring is not like self defense. I get that, but the thing is, especially with BBT were else are you going to get randomness. I have seen that, ya you can have pressure in the preset paired forms. In fact I have watched the black belts and out side of a few things they were throwing with speed and power and intent. The problem is, arts like mine and aikido and apparently most of the legit koryu don't spar.

So the question becomes outside of the obvious cardio and conditioning benefits, what else does sparring help with. I think the big thing is randomness. The ability to deal with unpredictable opponents. Also learning to take a hit and how really hitting someone feels.

So while I know that Chris parker has told me that you can have pressure in the kata(our paired kata), that pressure not matter how high, does not address randomness. Attacks are random.

I think part of the reason that MMA fighters do so well against most every style, and even on the street, is that they practice against randomness every day, from day one. Sure they may not have the most optimum skillset for street defense but its there inculcation to randomness that is one of their greatest strengths.

So the question I find my self struggling with, above all else is this. Those arts that teach techniques and no sparring, no randomness, how do you expect your students to be able to apply what they learn to a situation that is chalk full of random? How do you expect to be able to give and receive a hit if you don't know what being hit feels like? This question is the one I am struggling with the most. I honestly don't know how I can fix it with my own training but its a question that needs to be answered.

So Anti sparring people, chime in. I want your side of the story. I want a counter point.

Pro sparrers, whats your points?


I know that im going to have to address this as it is something that remains on my mind and cant be shaken..

Im reminded of this article..http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2...-skill-you-just-arent-as-good-as-you-thought/ and this one. http://www.fightscope.com/martial-arts/importance-of-sparring/

Basically, sparring while not a real self defense fight, is as close to a real fight as you can get. If you don't spar against a fully resisting opponent, not attacking you on a predetermined basis, how can you know that what your are learning or teaching works?

That is the internal struggle I am facing right now. I hope this sparks a good discussion.

Since all the heavy hitters have left this thread I am going to put my little thoughts in the whole debate.
I had to let it sit on my mind for a couple of weeks before I got my thoughts together.
The whole thing about sparring and self-defense part is that they really go hand and hand. The problem occurs when people think that all sparring is the same. It just isn’t. Let me dig deeper.
How many kind of sparring do we have?

1. 1-step sparring (popular amongst all styles), 2-step, and 3-step
2. 1 point sparring
3. Continuous point sparring
4. Free-style sparring.
5. Non-contact sparring or sparring combinations

Each one has its place. None of them are equal. But all can add value to a person training. When you miss one of these sparring types then you create a hole in competition fighting or self-defense.
All sparring have rules because all sparring are nothing more than a drill/game that we play with a live partner so the two of them can learn the drills they been learning solo. All those punches, kicks, grabs, throws, and etc. don’t meant nothing unless you do it against someone that don’t want you too. Here is a little in depth look into these sparring drills.
1-Step sparring
Usually used for low ranks for teaching distance, timing, accuracy, stances, blocks, kicks, and strikes. At times grabs can be used from the attacker to help teach defense for wrist locks, collar grabs, chokes, bear hugs, and etc. This is low level training. It can be added for higher level training when learning difficult moves.
Non-contact sparring or sparring combinations
Similar to 1-step sparring, only difference is the other person is moving and being active. Usually one person is moving and blocking while the other is attack. Turns are taken while learning movement, blocks, and strikes.
1-point sparring
Usually used in tournament based arts. Ideally the whole objective is to play tag. Roughly that is what fighting is; tagging a person with your fist or open hand while controlling distance and having excellent accuracy, speed, timing, and focus. Problem is the rules. Usually no grabbing, throws, groin strikes, eye gouges, hair pulling, and whatever else not being used in a street fight. If you develop these skills, it would be hard for someone to grab you anyway.
Continuous point sparring & free style sparring
These two help bring aliveness in sparring alive. Closes to a fight or self-defense training can get. All the elements in the previous two are now put more to the test. Same attributes are tested and learn and while you can go light to medium on the contact, the only general rule is no illegal street techniques. Why? So you can protect your training partner. Break them, and no one will spar you. Depending on the instructions, you may have one person be over aggressive while the other one is trying to work on defensive moves.
Now that being said, I do believe like 1-point sparring has its place in training, I think it is less effective to learn self-defense because you are trying to move in and out a lot and sometimes you need to press forward to end a fight as quickly as possible. Things like bear hugs and wrist grabs are usually not seen in continuous sparring and 1-step sparring is good learning those defenses.
Since fighting or self-defense happen in so many different kinds of ways, I believe that free style and 1-step sparring should blend together when a real altercation occurs. Whether you are attacked by a grab or with strikes, hopefully you can deal with ever comes your way as long as you have been train to do so.
Even most gun or knife defense is done with 1-steps. Knife fighting is usually done is continuous sparring. They are not the same because in knife fighting both have knife and usually you don’t start off with a knife against the throat.
The martial art systems that spar that I know of.
AIKIDO (1-STEP)
BUNJINKAN (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
BJJ (ROLLING)
BOXING (LIGHT TO HEAVY SPARRING)
CAPOREIA (RODA)
JUDO (ROLLING AND THROWING DRILLS)
KALI/ESCRIMA (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
KARATE (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
MUAY THAI (SPARRING)
TAI CHI- (PUSH HANDS)
TAEKWONDO (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
SAVATE (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
SILAT (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
SANDA/SANSHOU (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
SAMBO (1-STEP AND CONTINUOUS)
AND MANY MORE.

Some bujinkan sparring I found.

1-step sparring

Even groundwork sparring. A little

Ummm..Kframe you should be sparring.

 

[KydeX]

Since all the heavy hitters have left this thread I am going to put my little thoughts in the whole debate.

I'm pretty sure you will bring the heavy hitters back in with this post