Sparring: More Harm Than Good?

[Brian S]

I agree with alot that has been touched on so far, including the original poster.
For instance: A kick to an opponents inside leg forcing them to bend and turn,the head and jaw are grabbed and quickly torqued in the opposite direction. To me this seems applicable against an untrained resisting (unsuspecting) attacker. It also seems realistic that the outcome would be terrible for him. Yet it is a common move (bunkai)practiced in kata. I don't think anyone would want to subject themsleves as a guinea pig for this one.

 

[MJS]

You can drill techniques, even with partners, for many years until you can do them in your sleep. However, if you never try to apply those techniques in a chaotic situation where you don't know what is coming next and failure means a fist in the face, then when you face that situation your techniques will fail you.

Good points. This is why, IMHO, one should be sure to train their techniques with resistance and some movement. This past week, I was going thru some spontanious drills with my instructor. Just random attacks...I had no idea what he was going to throw. So, he'd throw his shot, and I'd begin my defense. During the strikes that I was throwing to him, he'd not only offer some resistance, but attempt to block and counter. We were still working techs. and not sparring. Certainly gives a new outlook to doing something, when your opponent is fighting back/resisting, rather than just standing there.

 

[MJS]

If in a real situation I will "fight as I train" and stick to the rules, not doing anything that is "dangerous" because that is how I train, will these people practicing deadly techniques not also "fight the way they train" and pretend to excecute deadly techniques without following through because that is how they train?

It seems like a very weak argument to me as that one comes out of it pretty naturally.

Now,couldn't the same be said of BJJ? I mean, I'm sure people don't break arms, KO on a regular basis or choke out their opponents each class. So, it comes down to...where we draw the line.

 

[MJS]

Sparring is a useful adjunct where practical and it certainly helps those who have not come from a 'rough and tumble' background to not fear taking a hit or dishing one out.

I find it a good sign that this thread has come up actually as it makes a nice change to flip the coin over from all those threads naysaying kata/drills as a training format.

Kata is where you learn to do the techniques properly and with power. Sparring is practice for a different set of skills. Taking hits, as noted above and also learning a little about tactical changes and opportunities 'on the fly'.

There are things that are simply not practical (as in 'safe') to practise in sparring. For example, in common with other arts, in Lau there are strikes to 'sensitive' or potentially fatal areas and breaking techniques which you just cannot use in a fight that is not real.

Good points. This goes right back to what I said in my OP. Its funny, because if we stop and think about it, there is alot that we train that we need to use caution with, yet even though I'm not actually hitting certain targets with full speed/power, I still find myself going for those targets.

On the other hand, like someone already mentioned here, if we don't really put our fingers thru their eyes, and we stop, whats to say that if we really want to do that eye gouge, we won't stop? In this case, and this is just my opinion......but I'm going to say that alot of it again, falls on how you train. If you're already conditioned to do those strikes, I feel its going to be more second nature.

 

[MarkC]

"So that said, anyone fancy sparring with me? What d'ya mean it's dangerous? Doesn't everyone practice their emptyhand arts against live blade katana's?"

Up to this point in my life, I haven't been attacked by anyone wielding a katana, or any type of sword.

 

[kidswarrior]

My teacher also told me story of a fight he got into outside a bar. My teacher said he threw a perfect roundhouse kick to the head and said to himself, "Yeah, I scored a point!" and then realized he was in a fight with an annoyed drunk guy that he just tapped on the head with his foot.

_Don Flatt

Which brings up a *sidebar* I'd like to make. Sparring in an antiseptic environment may be the only way to stress test ones ability to...take a hit, find the range, etc, etc. (add your own list), for someone who's never been in a fight. But some people have a fairly rich background in *street* (or whatever you want to call it) fighting. For such people, I see sparring as a step back, not forward.

K-G's instructor's fight is a humorous case in point (hope he came out of that OK ).

 

[kidswarrior]

You will note that I very carefully delineated the parameters - smart-pant :lol:.

That's OK, I understand your rules and am willing to accept. :asian: But as I believe Michael was intimating, some of us cheat. Can you say, cut-down scattergun?

 

[Sukerkin]

Bah! Have you not seen that episode of The New Avengers? I shall swat your puny missiles aside with the might of my yado :lol:.

 

[exile]

Good points. This is why, IMHO, one should be sure to train their techniques with resistance and some movement. This past week, I was going thru some spontanious drills with my instructor. Just random attacks...I had no idea what he was going to throw. So, he'd throw his shot, and I'd begin my defense. During the strikes that I was throwing to him, he'd not only offer some resistance, but attempt to block and counter. We were still working techs. and not sparring. Certainly gives a new outlook to doing something, when your opponent is fighting back/resisting, rather than just standing there.

This is a point that is consistently, infuriatingly overlooked in many discussions of kata, hyungs, forms, patterns—call 'em what you will. These teaching tools give you instruction in what to do, but they cannot possibly teach you, in themselves, to do it. Only you can do that, by just this sort of 'pressure testing', noncompliant 'live' CQ training, kata-based sparring—again, call it what you will. It's a step you can't leave out. And the trouble is, if you're going to do it right, it's going to be somewhat unpleasant, possibly rather painful, and, in rare cases, a bit more damaging than you want. One of the biggest advocates of this type of training, Iain Abernethy, say this about it in his April, 2007 article in Black Belt, 'Making Kata Work'"

If you wish to use the form's techniques and principles in live situations, you need to practice against noncompliant opponents because that's what you'll be facing... I've bled, broken bones and dislocated joints through my own adventures, so I fully appreciate that heavy contact isn't for everyone...

It's essential to gain live experience in applying the fighting techniques and principles recorded by kata. Without it, all the knowledge you gain from kata study will be theoretical. It's foolish to expect this theoretical knowledge to miraculously become practical knowledge when you need it.​

(p. 103). Pretty sobering, eh?

But it's not surprising. Look at what kids go through at, say, Marine boot camp. Horrible discomfort, pressure-testing under fire from live ammo, severe physical stress... because the reality of war is even more horrible, and there's no way to prepare a soldier for actual combat other than training under the nastiest conditions imaginable... and that still won't be nasty enough, probably. And it's still more severe for special ops outfits like the Rangers, the Green Berets, the British SBS/SAS, and the Israeli commando units whose names themselves are kept completely secret. The message is, if you want to survive conflict, you have to train to that level of conflict, or as close to it as possible. That's what Abernethy is saying, and warning us about, even while advocating that kind of training.

Which brings up a *sidebar* I'd like to make. Sparring in an antiseptic environment may be the only way to stress test ones ability to...take a hit, find the range, etc, etc. (add your own list), for someone who's never been in a fight. But some people have a fairly rich background in *street* (or whatever you want to call it) fighting. For such people, I see sparring as a step back, not forward.

Exactly. When you get down to it, you are going against someone who has done this before. And if you haven't done it before, at least in a very realistic 'simulator', you're going in at a severe disadvantage.

The problem is, fighting, real survival fighting, is about as unpleasant an experience as anyone can imagine. When you strip away all the media sanitization and choreography, it's about broken bones, damaged joints and blunt force trauma administered with your own limbs. We hate to think about it. A lot of this emphasis on etiquette, on the 'cultural' aspects (as though we could really get into the mindset of the people who originally created these arts), on all of that sort of thing, strikes me as an avoidance mechanism to distract ourselves from the basic irreducible facts of the TMAs: these skill sets were meant to do major damage, under frightening circumstances. If you're not willing to train them for that use, then you're making a big mistake in thinking they'll help you, should the worst possible sort of trouble come your way...

 

[jks9199]

I've said this before. I'm sure I'll say it again.

Sparring is ONE way of practicing the techniques you've learned against a partner. It's not the only way. It's a poor comparison to a real fight -- and even poorer to a real attack. But sparring is one more way to see how some sorts of pressure feel. It's a way to find out what it feels like to hit, and be hit, and to continue to function.

You have to couple sparring with drill (yes, kata is just one form of drilling when you boil it down), as well as work with a partner who becomes increasingly non-compliant as your confidence and comfort increases. You have to do exercises that simulate what may happen in a real attack, with enough of a safety factor that your training partners can help you prepare.

Is sparring a help or a hurt? It depends on your goals and on how you're sparring. The first experience I had in the police academy of hitting a role player -- I tagged him nicely, pulling my punches just like I would in class. I was nice... I hit him several times, in good targets... but they weren't effective. Too much of my training had focused on pulling punches. (The next time I got to hit a role player... he saw stars for about 20 minutes. Through headgear and mats on the floor.) Now, if I were to go into a tournament tomorrow, I'd have a problem. I'd probably do poorly, and lose -- but I bet the guy(s) I fought wouldn't want to face me outside the ring. Why? Too much of my training of late has been to do harm, quickly and effectively. Not play a specialized game of tag.

 

[jks9199]

The way I see it, if someone can throw a strong, accurate punch, with good timing, distance, focus, etc., and have its point of impact at the surface of the target (excellent control), then I see no reason why he can't aim that same punch 12 inches beyond the mere surface, in a real fight, since he certainly has the ability to land his punch where he intends for it to land.

But if he doesn't practice delivering a strike, through a variety of methods of practice, he will stop that strike in the real deal. That's what he's practiced, and it's what he'll do under pressure. I've proven this through personal experience.

Whether nor not the fist will be properly clenched, or whether he's going to be balanced or off-balance when he makes the impact, is a different matter, though, and that's something that does need some contact work. This does not, however, mean that sparring is the only way of learning such mechanics. For example, the said student could punch at a heavy bag that has been mounted against a wall, where a poorly clenched fist will be felt with any type of hard punch, and where bad balance will certainly be evident.

These are all good methods. None are adequate by themselves.

I have nothing against free sparring in a dojo, as long as the two fighters spar in a civil manner, and don't try to hit each others' vitals. If they want to throw some solid punches to each others' bodies, etc., then so be it. It gives people a chance to experience being hit, and how to deal with such situations, without having the multitude of injuries that would normally occur, if full face contact were allowed.

Sparring is a good tool to use in a dojo. However, it's not the only tool, and every teacher should have several tools at his access.

Your final line says it all. Sparring is but ONE method of practice; each has its place in training.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Sure sprring helps. Lots of good training methods help. And all can hurt if you don't keep you prespective as to what you are doing.

Kind of like the debate over if IPSC shooting helps or hurts ones practice for defensive skills. Even the SF learn from IPSC masters. They have found out all trigger time is good. Just keep it in prespective.

Deaf

 

[allenjp]

Now,couldn't the same be said of BJJ? I mean, I'm sure people don't break arms, KO on a regular basis or choke out their opponents each class. So, it comes down to...where we draw the line.

Have you ever sparred in a BJJ class? We don't break limbs or choke people out on a regular basis, or at least we don't mean to, but it does happen (getting choked unconcious is probably more common than broken limbs, although two people in my school have been out for weeks with bone breaks). The thing is that the way we spar, somone has to tap out, and you are taught not to tap out until you are convinced you have no way out. And they will continue to apply more and more pressure on that armbar or choke until you tap out, because if you don't tap, they don't think they have applied the technique correctly. So if your arm gets broken, or you get choked unconcious it is your fault because you didn't tap fast enough. So in that system, you know that the techniques are working, and the tap is effectively your partner asking you for mercy in not breaking his arm or continuing to apply the choke until he is dead, because he has tried and is unable to escape your technique. But you apply the techniques the exact same way you would in a real fight. All you have to do in a real fight is not let go.

Since my quote started this thread I want to clarify something. I don't think sparring is bad. But it has to be done the right way, and no it is not tne ONLY way to learn to apply techniques effectively. I think that sparring IS a good way to lose the fear of getting punched, and learning SOMEWHAT not to let your nerves disable you in a fight. But it CAN lead to bad habits if not done correctly, or if it is relied upon too heavily, without thinking of the implications of it.

One example I can think of is this: most schools don't spar with bare knuckles, they use gloves, and with good reason. Have you ever hit someone in the head with your bare knuckles? If not, let me tell you, it HURTS. And many, many times people break their hands doing it. So what happens then? If you normally spar with gloves, but you don't have time to put your gloves on before some jerk starts swingin' at you, so you punch him and break your hand and now you are unable to continue to punch him effectively. If you have not trained for this contigency in all your sparring, and if sparring is what you rely on to train for a real fight, you are now screwed. I think that all forms of training are valid if one keeps the right mindset about them, and keeps an open mind.

This is why I have said before that when I am training in BJJ I always keep in mind that in a real fight I most likely will not be fighting someone who is wearing a thick, heavy Gi. So It's likely I won't be able to use many of the Gi chokes that we practice so much in a SD situation. Some of those chokes will work however with a tee shirt, and so I am constatnly testing them on someone with a tee shirt to see which ones will work. I also ask my instructor frequently if he thinks certain techniques will work on someone wearing something other than a Gi. Another thing we do a lot is grab the Gi sleeves to control an arm, well with a tee shirt that won't work either so in class I try to always modify the hold and hold the wrist or the elbow directly without using the sleeve.

In the end I think it's all about mindset. My point in my previous post was to not DISCOUNT techniques JUST because they are not trained in sparring.

Sorry about the super long post...

 

[MJS]

Have you ever sparred in a BJJ class?

Yes, many times.

We don't break limbs or choke people out on a regular basis, or at least we don't mean to, but it does happen (getting choked unconcious is probably more common than broken limbs, although two people in my school have been out for weeks with bone breaks).

Since I've been grappling, my most serious injury was to my knee. This was done by a very new person, who, IMHO, felt it necessary to drift from the subject of the class, and crank my knee. I'll spare the few words I used and what I did, but it wasn't long before he knew his error and the meaning of control.

The thing is that the way we spar, somone has to tap out, and you are taught not to tap out until you are convinced you have no way out. And they will continue to apply more and more pressure on that armbar or choke until you tap out, because if you don't tap, they don't think they have applied the technique correctly. So if your arm gets broken, or you get choked unconcious it is your fault because you didn't tap fast enough. So in that system, you know that the techniques are working, and the tap is effectively your partner asking you for mercy in not breaking his arm or continuing to apply the choke until he is dead, because he has tried and is unable to escape your technique. But you apply the techniques the exact same way you would in a real fight. All you have to do in a real fight is not let go.

But, I would think that broken arms are not happening on a regular basis. If they are, the training partners will be few and far between. Sure, when I roll, and find myself in a bad position, I try to escape. However, safety is first on my mind at least. I'm not going to sacrifice my arm because of ego.

I guess thats what sparked that comment I made. I'd say that in most cases, someone will tap before the serious injury happens. So most of the time, like with our empty hand techniques which involve eye shots, breaks, etc., we never go all the way.

Since my quote started this thread I want to clarify something. I don't think sparring is bad. But it has to be done the right way, and no it is not tne ONLY way to learn to apply techniques effectively. I think that sparring IS a good way to lose the fear of getting punched, and learning SOMEWHAT not to let your nerves disable you in a fight. But it CAN lead to bad habits if not done correctly, or if it is relied upon too heavily, without thinking of the implications of it.

Agreed. I am certainly not against it, and I apologize if any of my posts gave that impression.

One example I can think of is this: most schools don't spar with bare knuckles, they use gloves, and with good reason. Have you ever hit someone in the head with your bare knuckles? If not, let me tell you, it HURTS. And many, many times people break their hands doing it. So what happens then? If you normally spar with gloves, but you don't have time to put your gloves on before some jerk starts swingin' at you, so you punch him and break your hand and now you are unable to continue to punch him effectively. If you have not trained for this contigency in all your sparring, and if sparring is what you rely on to train for a real fight, you are now screwed. I think that all forms of training are valid if one keeps the right mindset about them, and keeps an open mind.

Agreed.

This is why I have said before that when I am training in BJJ I always keep in mind that in a real fight I most likely will not be fighting someone who is wearing a thick, heavy Gi. So It's likely I won't be able to use many of the Gi chokes that we practice so much in a SD situation. Some of those chokes will work however with a tee shirt, and so I am constatnly testing them on someone with a tee shirt to see which ones will work. I also ask my instructor frequently if he thinks certain techniques will work on someone wearing something other than a Gi. Another thing we do a lot is grab the Gi sleeves to control an arm, well with a tee shirt that won't work either so in class I try to always modify the hold and hold the wrist or the elbow directly without using the sleeve.

Agreed again. Certainly a good idea to be well rounded in all aspects.

In the end I think it's all about mindset. My point in my previous post was to not DISCOUNT techniques JUST because they are not trained in sparring.

Lots of agreeing going on here! LOL! Like I said, I've said the same thing to folks that feel that if you can't do it in sparring......

Sorry about the super long post...

No worries, it was a great post!

Mike

 

[allenjp]

Completely off topic but...

can someone please tell me how to quote only part of someone's post?

Now back on topic...

MJS, thanks, I guess we'll just have to agree to AGREE on almost everything...LOL

Agreed, these injuries don't happen often thankfully...

The difference between BJJ techniques and say, eye gouges, in sparring IMHO is that you really can't ever apply an eye gouge full force in sparring because you'll poke out your partner's eyes. With say, a choke, I can actually apply that choke full force, the same way I would in a real fight. I am therefore really CHOKING my partner, but I let go when he asks me to. In a real fight, all I have to do is refuse to let go when asked to do so.

Hope that doesn't seem confusing, I confuse myself often...

 

[MJS]

Completely off topic but...

can someone please tell me how to quote only part of someone's post?

Use these [ ] with the word quote in between them, in the beginning of the post you want to quote. At the end, do the same thing, but put a / before the word quote.

Now back on topic...

MJS, thanks, I guess we'll just have to agree to AGREE on almost everything...LOL

Sounds good!

The difference between BJJ techniques and say, eye gouges, in sparring IMHO is that you really can't ever apply an eye gouge full force in sparring because you'll poke out your partner's eyes. With say, a choke, I can actually apply that choke full force, the same way I would in a real fight. I am therefore really CHOKING my partner, but I let go when he asks me to. In a real fight, all I have to do is refuse to let go when asked to do so.

Hope that doesn't seem confusing, I confuse myself often...

Good points. I guess I was just looking at the eye shots like this...due to their sensitive nature, it doesnt take much to get some reaction. An eye lash, sand, etc., in the eye and it takes alot out of you. Going with that, IMO, it shouldn't take much to get a reaction.

Speaking for myself only, but I really don't look at any shot as a fight stopper. I like to use one shot to set up the next, and the next, and.... If I'm lucky enough to have the guy drop to the ground after a groin shot, great for me. But, I'm not banking on that. Even if the person moves, I still got a reaction. Hopefully, I can use that to my advantage and follow up with something else.

 

[allenjp]

Speaking for myself only, but I really don't look at any shot as a fight stopper. I like to use one shot to set up the next, and the next, and.... If I'm lucky enough to have the guy drop to the ground after a groin shot, great for me. But, I'm not banking on that. Even if the person moves, I still got a reaction. Hopefully, I can use that to my advantage and follow up with something else.

I agree with that, you can't really count on any one technique to end a fight. I watched the Jackson-Griffin fight on Saturday (killer fight BTW) and the commentator said that in a fight he had in Brazil, Griffin had a broken arm and refused to tap, continued fighting and won the fight with his good arm. Sometimes you gotta realize that you need to have contingencies set up in case your "knock out shot" doesn't.

Thanks for teaching me the trick.

 

[jks9199]

Completely off topic but...



Use these [ ] with the word quote in between them, in the beginning of the post you want to quote. At the end, do the same thing, but put a / before the word quote.

Now back on topic...



Sounds good!




Good points. I guess I was just looking at the eye shots like this...due to their sensitive nature, it doesnt take much to get some reaction. An eye lash, sand, etc., in the eye and it takes alot out of you. Going with that, IMO, it shouldn't take much to get a reaction.

Speaking for myself only, but I really don't look at any shot as a fight stopper. I like to use one shot to set up the next, and the next, and.... If I'm lucky enough to have the guy drop to the ground after a groin shot, great for me. But, I'm not banking on that. Even if the person moves, I still got a reaction. Hopefully, I can use that to my advantage and follow up with something else.

Just to stay off topic briefly... begin by using the "Quote" function or Go Advanced from the Quick Reply button. Then, depending on what you want to do, just delete the parts that you don't want in the post. If you look at the menu bar above the area where you're typing, you'll see something that looks like a comic strip's word balloon; clicking on that will give you a set of the quote][/quote marks (I omitted the leading and tailing bracket so it'll show) to either paste what you want to quote or (if you have text highlighted) wrap the quote controls around it.

 

[ares]

I think sparring is extremely valuable. Some people who are very confident with regular class exercises tend to freeze up when someone comes at them in a fighting situation. They forget what they are taught and try to counter. But you still can have control in sparring. One person I was sparring with came at me with a superman punch and I moved back. After I did, he said that he didn't expect me to do that since I'm usually more aggressive. The floor in our classroom is carpet and concrete. I told him that I moved back because I didn't want to hurt him and then went on to explain that I was going to move forward and take his legs out from under him while he was in the air. Landing on the floor might have injured him and that isn't nice. We always use head gear and try to protect ourselves at all times. I think that I would be better prepared to defend myself in a real situation because of sparring.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Anyone who DOESN'T us sparring as part of their training isn't training for the real world.

Boxers don't just hit the speed bag and do pad drills....they get in the ring and spar.

Football players have scrimmage games.

You can't practice for the real thing if you don't realistically simulate the real thing......training without sparring is like driver's ed without ever getting in the car and driving around town.