Sparring: More Harm Than Good?

[sgtmac_46]

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

I will say once AGAIN for those that seem to not understand this for some reason:

I don't think sparring is bad. I think it is a good thing. I just don't think that certain styles or techniques should be discounted as completely ineffective because they are not practiced full force in sparring against a completely resistant partner.

I agree based on the fact that some techniques are difficult to spar, such as eye-gouges.....but lets assume that there was some room like on Star Trek TNG where holograms take on real form. Imagine you could go in that room and practice ALL of your skills, even the lethal ones, against realistic human being proxies....you could stab them, break their bones, gouge their eyes, all realistic with no real injuries to any real human beings.

THAT kind of training would be the most effective training available....short of that we have sparring.

Then how will I know how effective these techniques would have been on my opponent in a real fight, when I jab my sparring partner's goggles, and he laughs and says "you didn't really get my eyes"?

Kind of reminds me of when my kids play good guy-bad guy, and when one points his toy gun at the other one and says "bang! I got you" and the other one says "no, because I have a super invinceable forcefield".

What about bone breaking techniques? There is no guard to protect against those. Are we to assume they are useless in a real fight then?

We may have to agree to disagree here, which is fine, but IMHO lethal and debilitating techniques simply cannot be sparred with effectively. But that doesn't mean they are useless.

As noted before, it isn't that sparring isn't the MOST effective training method......but that some effective techniques don't lend themselves to non-injury sparring. Are many of those techniques 'effective'? Absolutely....and they would be even MORE effective if you could spar using them.

 

[Sukerkin]

I am sorry that I trully do not agree that sparring is the most effective training method, Mac. It inculcates as many bad habits in it's way that non-visualised kata do. Combine the two (sparring and real kata) and we have about the best we can do. Not perfect but good enough.

However, a Holodeck would be a glorious step forward in martial arts training, especially for those of us whose art of choice involves the use of three foot razor blades .

 

[Steve]

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

I will say once AGAIN for those that seem to not understand this for some reason:

I don't think sparring is bad. I think it is a good thing. I just don't think that certain styles or techniques should be discounted as completely ineffective because they are not practiced full force in sparring against a completely resistant partner.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone denying that a poke to the eye, a fish hook or a strike to the throat is effective. I think that sparring is the best way to develop the timing and technique necessary to hit a moving, unpredictable, resisting target where you want to. Said another way, if you don't spar, I don't believe your chances of hitting what you aim for when you need to are very good. Does that makes sense?

I agree with sgtmac_46 when he says that some techniques are more difficult to spar effectively. There are programs that do incorporate sparring with weapons and such.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that sparring is the only way to train. My point was simply to suggest that even in "alive" arts like BJJ, we do a heck of a lot of drills. We also do a lot of sparring. While I read many people saying that in their traditional style they do kata and spar, I got the impression that people believe that in BJJ we are taught a technique and then just... I don't know, fight until class is over.

The title of the thread is "Sparring: More Harm Than Good?" My belief is that sparring is one integral part of training. No more or less. Kata... well, I notice that some people have made a point of saying "non-visualized kata." I'm not sure if that's to distinguish kata from the many training drills I mentioned, or if there's some other specific reason for it. Regardless, slowing things down and working the techniques in various ways and to varying degrees of resistance are also important.

Allen, did you happen to read John Will's article? I appreciated his point of view. You don't wait until a child has perfected the art of throwing a football before you allow him to play in a game. It's only when he's in the game, developing context, that he can begin to understand the details.

 

[jks9199]

Any form of practice must have some inherent flaws in comparison with the real deal, unless you're going to walk down the street and pick fights and call it practice. (If you do, I suspect you'll quickly be given more opportunities to practice in a much more confining setting, if you know what I mean...)

Free sparring is a means of practicing the techniques against a partner who isn't playing by a script -- but is agreeing not to kill or maim you. You can vary the level of contact from barely-touching tag to near-full, but the truth is that you're not going to work at full force with your sparring partner. You just won't have many partners for long... You can armor up, and hit each other harder -- but you still have to restrict the targets. And the simple fact that you ARE NOT fighting for your life remains.

Now, you can pound a punching bag or makiwara as hard as your limbs can stand (or harder...) if you want -- but it's movement is going to be pretty limited, and it won't really hit back. You can do drills with focus mitts where the holder wallops you if you don't get out fast enough, or leave an opening... but that's not quite the same as fighting, is it?

The trick in training is to be aware of the necessary flaws, and work with various methods to balance them. I can't hit my training partner full force -- but I can hit the bag. Later, I can work with my training partner to avoid/counter, etc.

 

[shihansmurf]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone denying that a poke to the eye, a fish hook or a strike to the throat is effective. I think that sparring is the best way to develop the timing and technique necessary to hit a moving, unpredictable, resisting target where you want to. Said another way, if you don't spar, I don't believe your chances of hitting what you aim for when you need to are very good. Does that makes sense?

Makes perfect sense. Simply put, if you can't hit me in the face with your fist when I'm trying to stop you then you ain't gonna land an eye gouge either. If I train in an alive manner against a resisting opponent then I am at a tremendous advantage against any adversary that doesn't. Nothing prevents me from eye gouging or throat ripping, or kicking low, in fact I am better at it than someone that doesn't pressure test their skill set.

All that being said I think that kata is an invaluable training aid.It helps us improve our attributes, perfect proper form, gives us a bit of cardio(at least until we have it internalized enough that the movement becomes non-taxing), and is a good way to shadow box in an organized manner. Make no mistake, however, it is preparation for the big game.

Just my view
Mark

 

[tshadowchaser]

From the title of the thread I will simply say that sparring has its good and bad points.
What good comes from it will be determined by the rules you spar under and the quality of your opponent and the instructor who watches then breaks down what you did correctly and incorrectly. Positive criticism of the performance of those sparring will help them improve.
The bad points are that it is not a real fight and may lead you to develop habits that could cause harm to you in the street.