The sparring Thread.

[K-man]

Ok on sparring. It has been established that sparring is in no way congruent with real self defense. Even guys on sherdog agree with that, and they are militant in there mentality with regards to sparring. How ever what if despite it not being similar to SD, the supposition that those who do participate in sparring tend to do better in real situations then those who don't. That is the feeling that abounds in mma circles that I am apart of. They agree that sparring is not self defense, but they also believe that those who do good in sparring are more likely to perform better in a SD situation.

SteveNC, how do you feel about Krav maga? Check me if im wrong K man but don't they use a lot of paired partner drills? Steve if your ok with krav, why disparage Okinawan karate or other kata systems? Wouldn't karate bunkai of a kata be like Krav's pair'd drills? So if your going to hate on one, why not the others that use a similar setup for some training methodologies?

Like B.O im evolving on this issue. Looking back at my karate/mma/possibly JKD influenced mma instructor we did a hell of a lot more partner work then sparring. I found that I was picking up the new things quite quickly, especially as he added resistance to the partner work. I keep coming back to the karate deflections I was taught. For me they were dang near miraculous. Learn the movement, then he attacks you, slowly at first, and you use it to defend. I found that after a bit of time I was able to use them effectively in sparring. I loved it, as I never used many deflections before, didn't know any.

People sparring will always do better than non-martial artists who have never sparred. Sparring with contact, limited or full, will get you used to being hit (big plus), help with fitness, teach you to look for gaps in a defence etc. If you are training a martial art with no other form of contact training, then sure, sparring will help. But other training methods can be better depending on what you are wanting from your training. The supposition that those who spar do better in a fight is just that, supposition. It may well be that they are more confident in a fight which in turn is not such a good thing for self defence. Which is better SD, the guy who prefers to avoid a fight or the one who wants to test his MA skills?

The use of kata is pretty much the same as Krav, in fact some are identical. The principle is identical ... engage, destroy, disengage. In Krav it is almost all partner drill and our karate is the same.

As to the deflections ... Grasshopper, you have learnt well. Karate is all about deflection. It is inherent in every 'block' you learned. It is your means of entry to strike.

There is no kata in Krav Maga. In krav you have "retzev" which is practicing continuous movement. As far as my views on kata and okinawin karate (among others) I am not disparaging it so much as pointing out that it isn't needed in my opinion for self defense. Perhaps I just don't understand any of it as has been pointed out but I haven't run across one single person who came from a TMA who thought that kata was beneficial to them. Now I know what the follow up to that comment will be. It's the student and/or their past teachers fault. I look at it this way. If you were a karate instructor touting your art as great for self defense and 6 months in you teach me kata #1 can I fall back on that kata to defend myself against a street attack? The answer is a big fat NO and anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves. Now on the flipside of that I'm sure a 10 year practitioner of karate and kata could adequately defend themselves with or without ever having learned a kata. The people I teach self defense to don't have 10 years to become adequate.

There is no kata in Krav, true. No one is saying kata is essential for SD. You don't need a car to get from point A to point B. You can ride a motorbike or a bicycle or you could walk or run. In karate, you don't need kata to be effective in self defence. There are numerous training tools in martial arts, kata is just one of those. Learning kata without knowing how to use it is like having a flashy car without an engine. Looks good, but not much use as a means of transport.

As to your statement, "If you were a karate instructor touting your art as great for self defense and 6 months in you teach me kata #1 can I fall back on that kata to defend myself against a street attack? The answer is a big fat NO and anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves."

You must be a very slow learner. My beginner students learn how to use kata for self defence from day one. If you couldn't use the basic elements of kata to defend yourself in a few sessions I would suggest martial arts aren't your thing, you'd be better off knitting or quilting. There are things we know, there are things we know we don't know and there are things we don't know. You don't know how kata is used. That in itself is ok. To keep saying that kata is useless is to refuse to acknowledge that there are things you don't know. That is short sighted at the very least. You are the one kidding yourself.

Oh, and the people I teach don't need 10 years either.

Steve, I didn't say there was kata. I asked specifically about the pair'd partner drills. Why are you ignoring the fact that karate's bunkai and kravs partner drills are infact similar? Doing kata is more then just moving through the steps, many have pointed out that the correct method involves partnering up and applying it. The applied kata, also called bunkai operates similarly to kravs partner drills. Why do you keep ignoring that simple fact? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that kata is not a playbook from start to finish to be used in a fight? That's not the purpose of it. Kata with out bunkai is worthless. Why would any karate instructor in 6months tell you which kata to use in a fight? That's not what they are for. They are a vehicle for learning techniques and application of techniques(bunkai).

You keep ignoring these facts and touting your own opinion which is not backed up by any evidence. Plenty of people here train kata with application as it was intended. Don't believe us, go look up Ian Abernathy. http://shop.iainabernethy.com/acatalog/DVDs_UK.html?gclid=CIXPv7KBrrwCFZBj7Aod43MA3Q

Don't forget it is mainly karate kata that are single person. A lot of other kata are two man drills as they are intended to be used. Karate kata is different as it needs a knowledgable instructor to show you how the kata can be applied.

Sorry but I don't think so. Doesn't even make sense to believe such a thing. Not the way its taught in the large majority of establishments

And here is the most sensible thing you have written on the topic. "I don't think so." You may be correct in what you say about the majority of establishments, I have no way of knowing. I only know what I teach and what my friends teach in their schools and we teach how to use the kata as a fighting system.

Ian Abernathy? How many people are on that level? I go by what I see in front of me. By the people I deal with ever single day and what I have seen from former karate practitioners that seek better, more realistic training.don't shoot the messenger

Iain Abernethy, (note the spelling ) was one of the first guys to start teaching kata that way. George Dillman was another. Masaji Taira is teaching the same. The information is there for all to see. I can't make excuses for those who want to be spoon fed. If anyone wants to learn how to use kata in the way it was intended, there are places they can go. If you want to be a Michelin chef you aren't going to learn much of use at Mcdonalds.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

WOW that looks really cool. I give it an A++ for style and not much more than that.

So the first move, deflecting the punch while simultaneously trapping the arm and striking to the back of the head wasn't useful? And that was just the first part.

i agree! That is cool!
:asian:

 

[SteveNC]

K-manYou can teach somebody kata all day long. Because you teach it from Day 1 doesn't make it effective for the majority. I would feel confident in saying that a very high percentage of people who are taught kata as a means of SD training gain little to nothing from it whether they admit it or not.

 

[Kframe]

Sorry about the misspelling K Man. With regards to deflections ya, I never understood the notion that the "blocking" was intended to be used in isolation. I was always taught it as a defense that I could use to as you say create a entry for a counter attack. Now I do think some of the confusion regarding karate blocking may be due to its heritage. The blocking sequence I see in karate blocks look kind of similar to some Kung-fu defensive counters i have seen on YouTube. I wonder how much of the confusion on this part is due to the watering of karate down for school implementation.

Some karate teachers, teach the literal interpretation of the blocks. Chambering hand is a parry, the main movement is something else like a attack.. Basically each so called block that a newb is learning is actually a defensive "combination" of movements.

The other is how one of my favorite karate blogger Dan Djurdevic, is that there are two movements, primary and secondary and both are correct and both can be used either singularly or in concert. I personally subscribe to Dans view point, as that is how I was taught them.. Of course the exact method was different as we didn't train in typical karate fashion. I loved them. Used them extensively. Now I wasn't taught all of the some what 20+ Separate blocks but I have the core set and ill never forget them.

Looking back on it, I think I may have gotten more benefit from partner work with gradual pressure than I did with straight sparring. After a while it stopped feeling like a predermined operation and more like a repetition of "Oh Crap!!"

K man I think you and I will agree that, if someone finds a teacher that is not teaching the bunkai with the kata, then that teacher is doing them a disservice. I think part of Steve's problem is his area, like mine is repleat with karate. Most of it junk. I have around 20 karate dojo in a 1 hour drive of me. After my mma place closed I went looking for a tma and most were Bullshido started under masters with dubious histories. None of them did Bunkai. In fact the only place in my search that did bunkai was of all things a KKW TKD Dojang. I was utterly shocked by that, and he even used the word bunkai. Not surprised by it as he turned out to have a karate back ground as well as kung fu and a Black belt in Judo. I am not built for TKD so I decided not to go there, which is when I found Taijutsu.

This thread has given me much to think about. Maybe sparring isnt as necessary to self defense as I think it is, but maybe a nice occasional snack. I must think more on my past experience, as our conversation is causing me to recall things from my past that may help me evolve my understanding. Such as the relationship to the building of my skills and partner drills with relation to my sparring... I have much to think on there.

You know I asked my father this. He has training in both tkd and HKD(not sure were he found that in the 70's) He has used his art for self defense and self offence(some fights and what not) more then 30 times and I asked him about this. I told him I was in a art that doesn't really spar all that much, if at all in fact and I was concerned. He told me you cant have self defense with out the art part of the Martial art. He really Didn't seam all that concerned. He has a unique way of speaking and I hope to understand what he is telling me. We really didn't continue on after that as dinner was done and I was eating with my parents.

 

[K-man]

K-manYou can teach somebody kata all day long. Because you teach it from Day 1 doesn't make it effective for the majority. I would feel confident in saying that a very high percentage of people who are taught kata as a means of SD training gain little to nothing from it whether they admit it or not.

That is absurd! If kata is taught properly it is effective for everybody. It is identical in principle to Krav. Obviously you have not seen anyone who has been taught kata as a means of self defence. Learning to perform the moves of kata has absolutely nothing to do with self defence. Those are the people you are seeing.

 

[Kframe]

K-manYou can teach somebody kata all day long. Because you teach it from Day 1 doesn't make it effective for the majority. I would feel confident in saying that a very high percentage of people who are taught kata as a means of SD training gain little to nothing from it whether they admit it or not.

Are you referring to just the kata, or the Kata with bunkai? I ask because there is a difference. Do you truly understand what the word application means, because that is what bunkai is. Whats messed up is kata with bunkai, as K man is teaching his day 1 newbs, is no different then any krav partner drill.

Here is something cool I learned, that comes from kata. In my taijutsu class we were working Ura Gyaku and he got out the Jutte and we did it with a jutte. One of the variations we did had the same basic motion for the basic movements of Karate's Gedan Barai. It was during the part were you have the wrist and they are on the ground and your moving your feet in a circular motion to bring their chest to the ground. Well with the jutte, instead of going for the knee on the arm and wrist lock, we did the turn and with the opposite hand pulled them into a jutte strike. In operation it looked a lot like the Karate basic low block line drill. A line drill I had done before. I know I didn't describe that correctly, im hoping Chris parker can clear up my jumble but I think I got the jist of it through.

 

[ballen0351]

K-manYou can teach somebody kata all day long. Because you teach it from Day 1 doesn't make it effective for the majority. I would feel confident in saying that a very high percentage of people who are taught kata as a means of SD training gain little to nothing from it whether they admit it or not.

Hmm 100s of years of history disagree with you

 

[TKDTony2179]

Tony I agree. There very well could be a situation where you cant end a conflict quickly and you end up "fighting" instead. But how does traditional sparring help that person now involved in an all out street brawl? What does it teach the individual? How to take a punch? How to deal with getting stomped into the ground? If you are attacked and you can't end the conflict quickly what would make a person believe that they could take care of business in 30 seconds or a minute long fight?

If you are teaching people "self defense" you aren't doing your job by teaching them to fight (for prolonged periods) which is what sparring prepares people for.

I would say it would depend on how or what sparring they are traing for. There are many different sparring types. Some one step sparring are quick and to the point which will end a fight before it is really a fight.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I haven't run across one single person who came from a TMA who thought that kata was beneficial to them.

You have now.

 

[TKDTony2179]

you have now.

me too!!

 

[MJS]

There is no kata in Krav Maga. In krav you have "retzev" which is practicing continuous movement. As far as my views on kata and okinawin karate (among others) I am not disparaging it so much as pointing out that it isn't needed in my opinion for self defense. Perhaps I just don't understand any of it as has been pointed out but I haven't run across one single person who came from a TMA who thought that kata was beneficial to them. Now I know what the follow up to that comment will be. It's the student and/or their past teachers fault. I look at it this way. If you were a karate instructor touting your art as great for self defense and 6 months in you teach me kata #1 can I fall back on that kata to defend myself against a street attack? The answer is a big fat NO and anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves. Now on the flipside of that I'm sure a 10 year practitioner of karate and kata could adequately defend themselves with or without ever having learned a kata. The people I teach self defense to don't have 10 years to become adequate.

Good points! Every art I've trained in, has contained kata, so like it or not, I had to learn it and teach it. Personally, I'm not as huge a fan of it as others, but that's just me. I spent way too many years doing kata, and not having a clue as to the meaning behind the moves. Are they necessary to fight? IMO, no, although we all know that moves can be applied to SD.

But no, for pure SD purposes, if you teach the bare bones of an art, yes, you can certainly prepare someone quicker, and probably more effectively, with a smaller set of moves, that you can drill.

 

[MJS]

Steve, I didn't say there was kata. I asked specifically about the pair'd partner drills. Why are you ignoring the fact that karate's bunkai and kravs partner drills are infact similar? Doing kata is more then just moving through the steps, many have pointed out that the correct method involves partnering up and applying it. The applied kata, also called bunkai operates similarly to kravs partner drills. Why do you keep ignoring that simple fact? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that kata is not a playbook from start to finish to be used in a fight? That's not the purpose of it. Kata with out bunkai is worthless. Why would any karate instructor in 6months tell you which kata to use in a fight? That's not what they are for. They are a vehicle for learning techniques and application of techniques(bunkai).

You keep ignoring these facts and touting your own opinion which is not backed up by any evidence. Plenty of people here train kata with application as it was intended. Don't believe us, go look up Ian Abernathy. http://shop.iainabernethy.com/acatalog/DVDs_UK.html?gclid=CIXPv7KBrrwCFZBj7Aod43MA3Q

You bring up some valid points. Thing is, not everyone out there, does what guys like Ian do. I've seen teachers who had zero clue as to what the moves were. If they don't know the meaning behind the moves, they're either a) not going to have any idea how to make them more street applicable, or b) they're going to have to make up some half assed meaning, which is just as counter productive. For some of my Arnis belt exams, I had to give 1-2 different applications for the moves in the empty hand katas. Of course, my teachers made sure that the applications they were teaching, were sound.

 

[ballen0351]

You bring up some valid points. Thing is, not everyone out there, does what guys like Ian do. I've seen teachers who had zero clue as to what the moves were. If they don't know the meaning behind the moves, they're either a) not going to have any idea how to make them more street applicable, or b) they're going to have to make up some half assed meaning, which is just as counter productive. For some of my Arnis belt exams, I had to give 1-2 different applications for the moves in the empty hand katas. Of course, my teachers made sure that the applications they were teaching, were sound.

That's less a knock in Kata and more a knock on the teacher. There are crappy teachers everywhere and all arts. If I don't know why I'm doing something I shouldn't be teaching it. If I don't know what is going on in the kata I shouldn't be teaching it. That's true for most things if I don't know fundamentals of shooting I shouldn't be teaching people to shoot. If I don't know the fundamentals of banking I shouldn't be teaching economics etc etc etc

 

[MJS]

That's less a knock in Kata and more a knock on the teacher. There are crappy teachers everywhere and all arts. If I don't know why I'm doing something I shouldn't be teaching it. If I don't know what is going on in the kata I shouldn't be teaching it. That's true for most things if I don't know fundamentals of shooting I shouldn't be teaching people to shoot. If I don't know the fundamentals of banking I shouldn't be teaching economics etc etc etc

I agree. Like I said, I do kata, and I do enjoy it. *I* personally don't devote as much times as others, when it comes to breaking down the moves, but I do think about those things when I'm doing my kata...now that I've trained myself to understand things better, as well as having teachers now, who understand kata. Interestingly enough, a lot of the empty hand Arnis is very similar to the katas or anyos, as they're called.

 

[Kframe]

Edit. I seam to be trying to ask the same question in different ways. So I deleted this.

I feel there is value in sparring, because you get used to dealing with unannounced and unexpected attacks. Yes you can have resistance in your paired practice, I aknowldge that. I just feel that some unexpected and unannounced practice will be of help as well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It was said, by CP I think that he didn't think he could win a sparring match with a mma practitioner but would take his(CP's) training on the street. Not to pick on CP at all, that is not my intent. I must ask, if you cant beat him in sparring, how on earth would you deal with him on the street if he has a mental snap and decides to wear your skin as a coat? If your training wont work in a friendly spar, how will it work when he is being less then social?

I hear this argument from self defense only practitioners all the time, that their art dosent work in sparring only real self defense. I do not agree that the attacks found in sparring are not unexpected. Its that aspect of sparring I cant shake, the you have no idea what attack is coming in what order and you have to contend with all 4 ranges of unarmed. If you cant make your arts techniques or strategies work on a resisting opponent throwing unexpected and unannounced attacks and resistance at you, how will you ever do it on the street or bar fight? It seams like a logical fallacy.

Now to be honest, that is just me free thinking my thoughts on this. I am mearly trying to stimulate more discussion in that direction. Devil advocate to say. There was a interesting thread on Sherdog regarding this very subject and I am finding their take on it pretty interesting. Strangely some of them are moving in a similar direction as others here.

There's a bad answer to this and a good answer.

The bad (and unfortunately common) answer is something like this: "In the street there are no rules. I'd use <insert list of techniques that are currently illegal in MMA competition and that the speaker thinks a professional MMA fighter wouldn't have an answer for> in a real fight, but these moves are too deadly for sparring." I could write an essay on why this is not the most realistic viewpoint.

The good answer is something like this: "In a real self-defense encounter I am highly unlikely to be fighting a trained martial artist. I don't need the specialized techniques for countering things like a BJJ players guard or a boxers evasive head movement. Instead I need a different set of skills - things like recognizing a potential confrontation ahead of time, defusing or avoiding it before it starts, pre-emptively attacking if the fight can't be avoided, maintaining the tactical awareness of factors like weapons/multiple opponents/potential exits under stress, and safely disengaging and escaping when the opportunity presents itself. None of those skills are useful in MMA competition and so they aren't part of regular MMA training."

 

[Kframe]

That's a good answere, but what if your assailant also has MMA training then what? While I agree most in mma are not that kind of person, it is popular as is boxing with the underclass in deep urban areas. (at least around here) So what then?

 

[TKDTony2179]

That's a good answere, but what if your assailant also has MMA training then what? While I agree most in mma are not that kind of person, it is popular as is boxing with the underclass in deep urban areas. (at least around here) So what then?

Then you should go with the things you can't use in sparring. Head butting, eye gouging, fish hooking, groin strikes, and what ever else not permitted. They won't stop a fight but from understanding these tecs are meant to slow or interrupt a person rhythm or even balance. Didn't even say anything about slapping the ear canal. I wont do it in sparring but if I had too I would. .

 

[Kframe]

Me personally im not to worried about fighting in bars and such as I don't go to bars and rarely if ever drink. It is almost as if the dynamics of a fight and the dynamics of a real predatory self defense situation are different.

Watched a video on random knife attacks and they were not like fights. Those attacks were 100% committed.

Now the question becomes, how do you prepare for one and not affect the other? Is it possible to be good at fighting and self defense or are the two mutually exclusive?

So far, what im distilling from this is that someone who does a competitive art that does lots of sparring, should be ok when it comes to more ego fueled situations such as pissing contests at a bar over spilt milk or girls. It seams that when it comes to predatory or asocial violence that things shake apart. HMM much to think of. Off to youtube to watch more fight vids!!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It is almost as if the dynamics of a fight and the dynamics of a real predatory self defense situation are different.

Yep.

Is it possible to be good at fighting and self defense or are the two mutually exclusive?

It's absolutely possible to be good at both. In fact, there are attributes and techniques which overlap between the two domains. However, being good at one doesn't necessarily mean you are good at the other. You have to train for both and understand the difference.