dealing with someone much bigger

[Tony]

I was down my gym last night working out and I'm not as strong as a lof of the guys who work out there. Some of them have arms as big as my waist, 2 or 3 times my size. They are a quite an intimidating sight. I wouldn't want to upset any of them, but I certainly would like to think that if ever some one physically bigger and stronger than me were throwing their weight around, my training would help me. Lets face it big musclebound guys are hardly ever seen as victims and all they have to do is stare at those individuals with the smaller frames and they cower away.
Remember David had a weapon when he beat Goliath, but our weapons are our Martial Arts skills, our intelligence over brawn. The disadvantages with muscle is can slow people down, especially kicks and punches, however there those big guys who can punch fast and even kick quite fast too.
My instructor who is a lot smaller than me is quite skilled at what he does and has said on many occasions to use those persons own strength against them.
This is also something familiar in Morehei Ueshiba's Aikido, the founder who was a petite man but could effortlessly throw multiple opponents, providing they attacked first.
I have heard of Bruce Lee being able to knock down guys twice his size and he was only about 130lbs 5'7" . Quite a feat but not impossible with the right training. In my view what is the point of knowing so many Martial Arts techniques if they cannot be applied to different sized individuals and already having that knowledge, why should we still be afraid of these bigger guys? Those of you who have degrees in Physics could probably give an explanation on the mechanics involved. We all have probably seen the damage of a car collidiing at a certain speed and the damage that is cause when a car collides with a truck.

 

[loki09789]

"The disadvantages with muscle is can slow people down, especially kicks and punches, however there those big guys who can punch fast and even kick quite fast too"

This idea is really more an assumption than fact. Ken Shamrock and just about any football (American not Euro), or rugby player of size blows that theory out of the water. The idea that muscle mass equates to slower movement is imbedded in the fitness industry, full of people who are exercising for vanity/health as opposed to performance. Body builder types learned their lesson because they were very large but 'bulky' with restricted motion because they were not using flexibility training along with their mass building/proportion perfecting program.

The scary guys that are big and fast that you mention are either naturally gifted, or trained for athletic performance which produces - if you want it - muscles that 'go' and not just 'show.' Former wrestlers, football/rugby players... who decide to scrap are deceptively fast for their size.

 

[7starmantis]

Well if you are capable of such a devistating assault what threat did the person offer in the first place? I mean I think we would all want to neutralise threat in a fight as quickly as posable.

I don't understand the logic here. A threat is not contingent upon your ability to attack or defend yourself. Any MAist will tell you that simply because you are trained to defend yourself doesn't make threats less threatening.

While most do say they want to neutrilize the threat as quickly as possible, some use technique that doesn't perform said goal. Alot of people train "punch step back" techniques. What I'm talking about is more a mental strategy than any specific techniques. Some expect their powerhouse punch will change the attackers mind, when they shouldn't even be worried about changing their mind, just take away their attack.

This idea is really more an assumption than fact. Ken Shamrock and just about any football (American not Euro), or rugby player of size blows that theory out of the water. The idea that muscle mass equates to slower movement is imbedded in the fitness industry, full of people who are exercising for vanity/health as opposed to performance.

I agree with this statement, however there is some truth in the fact that larger mass even utilizing flexability training does limit range of motion. The only argument I have about mass vs speed is that most who train for large mass ignore speed training, thus giving the speed trainer an edge in speed. With different systems there could be more advantages to lower mass. In mantis we rely on feeling and sensitivity. Constantly training with heavy weights and bodybuilding tends to negativly effect sensitivity. We practice on being "soft" when fighting. When I fight some of my training partners who are body building I can feel when they tense to rely on muscle and can move to another technique quickly enough that they don't realize and are still in the process of putting their force against me. That is being able to use their force against them.

I guess I agree with you mainly, but there are some points to both arguments.

7sm

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

My kenpo sparring partner is a 4th Dan, with over 20 years training. He also happens to be a 265-285 pound body-builder. When we first started training, I was faster and trickier then he, and could hit him at a ratio of about 7 to 1, but when he did get me with that one..."Ouch" (or, more likely, "oomph"). One day, while he was on a cycle (you can guess of what), he had gained about 30 more pounds, and -- surprise, surprise -- also gained speed. He stepped it up, and in the spirit of competition, I did too. I was plesantly surprised to find that, when I really cvoncentrated on putting the screws to him then getting back out of the way, I could whack him at will, without retribution. In doing so, I made him mad. He changed strategy. Waited for me to enter, took the hits, and latched onto me in a rage. Picked my 6'4", 185-pound hiney straight up off the ground, and pinned me to the wall by the chest, saying, "Little man, you are starting to piss me off."

Flash to early '90's, and studying BJJ. My training partner is a 2-time state powerlifting champ. Manhandles me at will, despite us being neck-to-neck technically. I make the decision of questionable intelligence to start passing on the grappling to my kenpo sparring partner. First thing I teach him: Shoot, mount, pound. He shoots, mounts, and raises into the air a fist about the size of a roast, parked to be shot downward out of a cannon of 22-inch arms and a barrel chest. "Like this?". Yeah, like that (internal shudder). Next, we work on rear naked choke with hooks in. I put it on him...he does a chin-up type motion, and unfurls my choke like a scarf on a windy day. In a flash, I get it: Size matters. I may be slow, but after years of getting folded in half during sparring class by guys much bigger, and after years of getting tossed around by my sparring partner like a rag doll, and after mere months of being brutalized by my grappling buddy, I got it. Time to get my skinny *** in the gym, on a strict size-building diet, with a regimen towards beef.

Well, with the passage of time, I got to 240-245 (depending on lots of things). Everything got better: Technical game, sparring, grappling, kenpo speed...even my ranges of motion (depends on how you train). Ability to weather blows during sparring really stood out; I never had a comparator, so never knew how much it was taking out of me to get hit without any body mass. Even helped me in my work at the time (bouncer...you can imagine the number of people who didn't take me seriously at 185 when I told them it was time to leave).

Moral of the story? Solution to how to beat a bigger guy is to BE the bigger guy. Get in the gym, train like a madman, and start eating a 10,000 calorie/day diet that's heavy on protien, light on carbs and fat. Try creatine. Try everything. Add 60 lbs to your frame, stretch before and after resistance training, and DON'T LET UP ON YOUR MA TRAINING TIME!

Till we meet again in that place where we are all one,

Dr. Dave

 

[moving target]

I don't understand the logic here. A threat is not contingent upon your ability to attack or defend yourself. Any MAist will tell you that simply because you are trained to defend yourself doesn't make threats less threatening.

I disagree. We are talking about an opponant who is bigger than you and I assumed unarmed. The threat this individual poses depends on their ability to inflict harm to you. If we assume you precieve this threat and that you are going to deffend yourself it seems to me the amount of harm they can inflict is not entirly dependent on them, but also on your ability to deffend yourself and your ability to bring the fight to them. If you are a good enough fighter that you can land a slew of dammaging or even crippling blows before they register the first one than it seems to me that the threat that individual poses is relativly minimal compared to an individual upon which you could not land so many blows.

While most do say they want to neutrilize the threat as quickly as possible, some use technique that doesn't perform said goal. Alot of people train "punch step back" techniques. What I'm talking about is more a mental strategy than any specific techniques. Some expect their powerhouse punch will change the attackers mind, when they shouldn't even be worried about changing their mind, just take away their attack.

I would agree. If you aren't realisticly going about achieving your goal than you need to take a step back and take an objective look at your strategies and tactics.

 

[7starmantis]

Solution to how to beat a bigger guy is to BE the bigger guy. Get in the gym, train like a madman, and start eating a 10,000 calorie/day diet that's heavy on protien, light on carbs and fat. Try creatine. Try everything. Add 60 lbs to your frame, stretch before and after resistance training, and DON'T LET UP ON YOUR MA TRAINING TIME!

Thats sort of a self defeating solution is it not? You will never be the bigger guy 100% of the time, never. To try to go about being the biggest person you ever see, I think you are loosing sight of the true goal.

I disagree. We are talking about an opponant who is bigger than you and I assumed unarmed. The threat this individual poses depends on their ability to inflict harm to you. If we assume you precieve this threat and that you are going to deffend yourself it seems to me the amount of harm they can inflict is not entirly dependent on them, but also on your ability to deffend yourself and your ability to bring the fight to them. If you are a good enough fighter that you can land a slew of dammaging or even crippling blows before they register the first one than it seems to me that the threat that individual poses is relativly minimal compared to an individual upon which you could not land so many blows.

First of all, it is impossible to measure someones skill level by looking at them. This very state of mind is what puts you at the disadvantage. Just because they are bigger than you, you assume they can hurt you worse then someone smaller than you? Also, it matters not how much better you are then them, or how many attacks you can land on them. At any given time anyone can beat anyone! If you believe differently ask around, or just start fighting everyone you see in the street. Just because you have more skill, there are still a million possiblities of things that could happen duringa fight.

7sm

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thats sort of a self defeating solution is it not? You will never be the bigger guy 100% of the time, never. To try to go about being the biggest person you ever see, I think you are loosing sight of the true goal.

Not expecting to be the biggest guy ever. Am saying size matters. A guy I worked with - stocky, and skilled MA-ist - mocked some yahoo chain belt in one-hung-lo kung fu out of the bar by responding to his technical bravado and challenge with, "you couldn't possibly weigh 140 pounds soaking wet!".

If the goal of the martial arts is to prepare for combat, strength training is an essential adjunct. Who do you think can hit harder...skinny little guy with 25 years training, or massive roid beast with same training, same years? We should not avoid the obvious in our attempts to be obtuse.

 

[Tony]

I would have to agree with 7* its does defeat the object somewhat if you have to train yourself to be stronger than a potential attacker.
The founders and masters of many Martial Arts systems were certainly not big guys but were highly trained enought to deal with bigger opponents.
Big guys however can be trained to hit fast and their size is surely an obvious advantage if they have trained themselves specifically for that purpose.
What is the point of learning any Martial Art if you can't defend yourself from a bigger stronger opponent. Because to be totally undefeatable it implies you have to be the strongest and biggest guy in the world and that would take some training.
I don't believe it is impossible to defeat a bigger opponent, but you have to be highy skilled, confident in your abilities and very fast especially fast at evading blows! For a smaller person it is never a good idea to meet force with force but to use an attackers strength against him and use a lot more speed!
Bruce Lee only weighed about 130lbs but he had phenomenal power and speed. He was also very strong and could lift weights that people weight 230 or more couldn't lift! Sure he looked small but he wasn't easily intimidate by the sight of a 6ft 250 + individual!

 

[7starmantis]

If the goal of the martial arts is to prepare for combat, strength training is an essential adjunct. Who do you think can hit harder...skinny little guy with 25 years training, or massive roid beast with same training, same years? We should not avoid the obvious in our attempts to be obtuse.

Strength training is very neccessary, however strength training and body building are two completely different things. Your obviously not going to accept any belief but your own, but you are very wrong about who is able to hit harder. Different stirking techniques are used, none of them relying completely on muscle strength. Hitting harder doesn't allways equal winning a fight either. If your relying on pure muscle power to hit as hard as possible your opponent has an advantage of using your force against you.

I'm not sure why you would want to be obtuse in your argument, but the obvious is not allways the truth. One of my training partners is a big body building type guy. We train full contact San Shou and I take his hardest kicks and punches all the time. My sifu is a smaller guy maybe 5'9" 140?lbs. I take palm strikes from him and get to sit on the ground trying to find my breath. Its about technique, not power. In your search for skill don't be fooled by the "obvious" sometimes its not what you really need to seek out.

7sm

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Your obviously not going to accept any belief but your own, but you are very wrong about who is able to hit harder.

7sm

Interesting that you would make this observation, just prior to settling in to a defense of your own unwavering belief...a bit-o-the pot calling the kettle black, perhaps?

Have you been missing the parts I write about all other variables being kept equal between comparators? About not letting up on martial arts training time?

Who has more hours/years of studying/training: instructor, or body-builder? What would happen to your instructors strike if we kept his stellar technique, and added the greater physical development of your training partner, the muscle-head?

It doesn't have to be either/or; that's why I stress weight training as an adjunct to MA time, and not a replacement for it.

 

[moving target]

First of all, it is impossible to measure someones skill level by looking at them. This very state of mind is what puts you at the disadvantage. Just because they are bigger than you, you assume they can hurt you worse then someone smaller than you? Also, it matters not how much better you are then them, or how many attacks you can land on them. At any given time anyone can beat anyone! If you believe differently ask around, or just start fighting everyone you see in the street. Just because you have more skill, there are still a million possiblities of things that could happen duringa fight.

When I said "If we assume you precieve this threat" I did not mean you precieve the absolute value of the threat a person poses but rather that they do intend or threaten to inflict harm.

All things being equal a bigger person can inflict more dammage and absorb more.

I never said that greater skill could negate any threat a person poses, I was asking "what threat did they pose in the first place". Just because anyone can win anywhere doesn't mean they pose a significant threat. If you are significantly better than another fighter to the point that you can dominate in the fight, it is probable that you will win. I'm not trying to say training makes you invulnerable, what I was saying was about fighting someone bigger with the inplication that the smaller person did not have a great deal of skill in fighting. It seemed to be a question of genneral tactics. It doesn't seem to me that the question would have been asked if cfr could land 4 or 5 blows that were "serious enough to surprise or change their mind" before he registered the first. I just think if you can do that than the question isn't all that relevant.

 

[Tony]

So all us smaller guys should just give up if we are attacked by some bigger guy and ask for his mercy? I believe one of the purpose of Martial arts is self defence and that includes defence against a various attackers and sizes.
Certainly when going to a club, or bar we may feel intimidated by the door men who are both as wide as they are tall, which is why they are hired for such a job. Who ever heard of a bouncer who was 130 pounds and only 5'7".
What hope is there for the victims of bullying at schools if they can only protect themselves by trying to make themselves bigger and stronger than their tormentors? This is why so many targets of bullying learn Martial Arts so that they protect themselves from the people who are bigger then them, and who prey on them because they are weaker.
Through proper technique I believe larger opponents can be neutralised by having their strength used against them as long as you have enough experience and skill.

 

[7starmantis]

Who has more hours/years of studying/training: instructor, or body-builder? What would happen to your instructors strike if we kept his stellar technique, and added the greater physical development of your training partner, the muscle-head?

It doesn't have to be either/or; that's why I stress weight training as an adjunct to MA time, and not a replacement for it.

Your just simply missing the point. Refering back to the example I gave about my sifu's power, he's not using pure muscle. In fact he's not using the top of his muscular strength in that strike. Adding muscle wouldn't change his strike at all. Your also making a huge assumption that a "muscle head" has "greater physical development". Thats a huge assumption that is not only biased but wrong.

My only problem with traing as an adjunct is that in order to have great skill in MA you have to put LAOT of time in. In order to be great at body building you have to put LAOT of time in. Where in the world is all this time coming from to be great at both? Now, I know my values for greatness are probably way different than lots of others, but the fact remains, one of them will receive more of your attention, or at least should if you want to have great skill in either.

I'm not against weight training, I'm just saying your biased and strongly skewed opinions on the superiority of "muscle heads" is incorrect and simply a farse. Being bigger doesn't mean you can beat up more people, that is the whole purpose of MA in general, to defend against those stronger or bigger.

All things being equal a bigger person can inflict more dammage and absorb more.

That is simply put, wrong. You are rulling out all system of MA that use the attackers force against them. Wait, thats most MA. That is just a wrong assumption that is simply contrived on falshood. Its simply not true. Take your two identically trained persons, their ability to inflict or absorb "correctly" will be comparativly equal. Sure, by mass alone pure force can be absorbed more with more mass, but most MA don't teach simple absorbing techniques. Who goes out in the street, gets attacked, and just stands there trying to absorb the attack?

7sm

 

[loki09789]

The following is a clip from and article on the Train Like A PRO website by Kevin Beihm, a former NHL athlete turned sports trainer:

Training for sports is much different then training like a bodybuilder. Training for sports involves using functional exercises that lead to increased performance on the ice or field.
Looking big and strong is the byproduct, not the goal. Bodybuilding involves isolating muscles and trying to make them as big as possible. Don’t make the mistake of following a typical bodybuilding program as you will see little or no increase in performance.

Our programs are designed to help the athlete compete better in his or her sport. Many of our athletes have physiques that most people only dream of. Even though our main goal is not appearance improvement, our trainees attain very low levels of body fat and large increases in muscle mass.

The key is the muscles are built together, as a unit, so they can function together on the ice or field. Our training programs are functional, which means they include exercises that have been proven to increase athletic performance.

I spent many years working very hard but I was training the wrong way. Isolation exercises and long bouts of aerobic exercise were the meat of my training and this actually hurt my performance. When I finally learned to train properly the difference was amazing. This is why I am so passionate about training these young aspiring athletes."

March, 2004 issue of Train like a pro newsletter.

Weight training isn't a bad supplement to MA training, but if it is suppose to be developing performance enhancement, it should be functionally driven, not body builder/symetrical frame driven in goal. Believe it or don't 'functional strength' and 'power/speed' training for MArtists equates to practicing techniques for speed/power, sparring, full or near power self defense scenarios...because technical skill, tactical understanding and WILL are just as important to power generation as muscular power development. Traditional fitness training of 3 sets of 8-12 with 90 minutes of target heart rate cardio a week are designed to promote baseline fitness. Even 'power lifting' is not as effective as good old MA training because it lacks specificity in application. Fitness exercises and power lifting are good and are the foundation that we build our performance/athletic specific development onto. A solid MA program with technical, striking, conditioning, sparring components of training is where a MArtist should be devoting the lion's share of training if they want to be effective.

When I was overseas, my squad got bored with regular PT, so we organized a wrestling match. One of my gunners was a solid body builder type with a VERY high strength to weight ration: he weighed about 170-185 and could bench 300. He was getting in his own way and couldn't transfer that gym strength to the wresting match because he had not trained in the technical apsects of the event - even though he had been a high school wrestler - and his muscles and nervous system had not been trained to 'snap' his strength from the 'pushing thrust' of weight lifting to the explosive power of entries and take downs. Not to mention his endurance was nil.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Your just simply missing the point. Refering back to the example I gave about my sifu's power, he's not using pure muscle. In fact he's not using the top of his muscular strength in that strike. Adding muscle wouldn't change his strike at all. Your also making a huge assumption that a "muscle head" has "greater physical development". Thats a huge assumption that is not only biased but wrong.

My only problem with traing as an adjunct is that in order to have great skill in MA you have to put LAOT of time in. In order to be great at body building you have to put LAOT of time in. Where in the world is all this time coming from to be great at both? Now, I know my values for greatness are probably way different than lots of others, but the fact remains, one of them will receive more of your attention, or at least should if you want to have great skill in either.

I'm not against weight training, I'm just saying your biased and strongly skewed opinions on the superiority of "muscle heads" is incorrect and simply a farse. Being bigger doesn't mean you can beat up more people, that is the whole purpose of MA in general, to defend against those stronger or bigger.

[/color]

That is simply put, wrong. You are rulling out all system of MA that use the attackers force against them. Wait, thats most MA. That is just a wrong assumption that is simply contrived on falshood. Its simply not true. Take your two identically trained persons, their ability to inflict or absorb "correctly" will be comparativly equal. Sure, by mass alone pure force can be absorbed more with more mass, but most MA don't teach simple absorbing techniques. Who goes out in the street, gets attacked, and just stands there trying to absorb the attack?

7sm

Thought experiment: What if, for all your insistence, you're wrong? Is there room in your universe for such a possibility? I doubt it, but what if?...

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Careful with your optimism. In my old Aikido class we did a lot of practicing sitting down and working with someone attacking you.
Also in some of my other martial art styles we worked with techniques when we were on the ground too.
You might take someones legs out but that doesnt mean the fight is neccessarily over too. Some people might be deadlier on the ground wounded then standing up.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

I am going to have to agree w/ black bear on that.... naturally if you move inside its going to make it harder on someone much bigger & larger. Do that & take out the legs, you will be ok, if the problem ever presents itself. No legs= No fight

 

[Black Bear]

"no legs = no fight" is an overstatement, kind of like "do X and the fight is over". It's not "over" but the outcome is a foregone conclusion.Seriously, whether you're standing, sitting, kneeling, or on the ground, if you have a misplaced patella (I don't know if it's called "dislocated" since a patella really doesn't have a joint as such) or leg numbed from the pain of a peroneal nerve shot, your ability to fight is way way less than half. Every try grappling without use of your legs, or one leg? I mean real grappling, with a resisting opponent? You're a sitting duck.

Also, use the pain as an "entry".

Also, last summer my instructor had a bum leg. When we grappled we called him "tripod".

 

[RCastillo]

Mental Note; Bring Professor Dennis Conatser with me. Problem solved! :uhyeah:

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

there is also something that you need to consider have you ever heard the term freak of nature.
I have met some people who were. These were people who could take incredible pain and it didnt fase them till later. I knew of one guy who spent 6 months here in the states studying and would go to Korea to study for the next 6 months. He did this for over 10 years. One day they were doing a test in his school. He was breaking stones with his hand.
This guy that day couldnt break the stone but instead he kept pounding on it to where he bloodied his knuckles and exposed bone. He didnt show any signs of pain even though when he went to go sit down he had blood dripping all over his uniform from his knuckles and just sat there.

There are people who you will find out there that can take pain you or i would surely say uncle too and be fine with it. So it depends on the person its being done too.


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

"no legs = no fight" is an overstatement, kind of like "do X and the fight is over". It's not "over" but the outcome is a foregone conclusion.Seriously, whether you're standing, sitting, kneeling, or on the ground, if you have a misplaced patella (I don't know if it's called "dislocated" since a patella really doesn't have a joint as such) or leg numbed from the pain of a peroneal nerve shot, your ability to fight is way way less than half. Every try grappling without use of your legs, or one leg? I mean real grappling, with a resisting opponent? You're a sitting duck.

Also, use the pain as an "entry".

Also, last summer my instructor had a bum leg. When we grappled we called him "tripod".

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It doesn't matter. I've ordered my Golden Chicken Kung-Fu Master's Certificate and Key-Chain over the internet, and now I'm invincible. The ad says it; it must be true. What would anybody else know about anything? (P.S., did I tell you I'm a Golden Chicken Kung-Fu Master?...that makes me invincible.)