The sparring Thread.

[Kframe]

Chris Parker. You said "Hmm..."DPS".... "Damage Per Second"... I had to look that up. Video game terminology isn't really that usable here... for a range of reasons. For the record, you'd need to clarify a lot here... what "modern strikers" are you talking about? Sporting systems (such as boxing, kickboxing, MMA) will teach you to stagger the power/impact of your strikes so you're still able to continue fighting for multiple rounds... the idea is that you gradually wear the opponent down, test their defences, look for openings, and so on. Some non-sporting systems seek to overwhelm (such as a number of Chinese systems, Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut etc), so might focus on a large number of strikes applied in rapid-fire bursts. We don't do that. We hit to defined targets with a hell of a lot behind them, with the idea of doing as much with one strike as another might with multiples. I had a Wing Chun student once throw a series of chain punches into a pad I was holding, after which he turned to me and asked if I could tell how many strikes he'd thrown. When I couldn't, he looked satisfied, smiled, and said "Exactly! If you can't keep up, how can you block them all?". I told him to hold the pad, and hit it once. That one hit was significantly more than anything he'd thrown, as our mechanics put our entire bodyweight behind everything... he winced, turned away, and shook some feeling back into his hand. "How many was that?""

Chris parker, you also said "Nope" to my description of Ichimonji. I was just describing how it felt, if im wrong can you please point me in the right direction? It just feels like a spear.. Maybe not the best description but that is how it feels.


Im very short on time, I need to come back tonight with a longer more detailed response but I want to focus on this for now. They way you are describing mma/boxing/kickboxing training is not how I experienced it. I was never once, either in my boxing training by my 7 time champion coach or both sets of my mma instructors to gradually wear him down and make the fight last. In fact we were instructed in the opposite, always looking for the finish. We conditioned on the premise we may need to fight for 25 minutes, so we conditioned as hard as we could so would could last as long as we could. How ever, as I stated, I was never at any point instructed to do anything to drag on the duration of the fight.

This was not something any of my coach's wanted. We were always looking to end it right now right there as fast as we could. We trained for the worst case scenario which is 5rounds with 25 minutes of total fighting but our training focused on ending it asap.

With regards to how Nagase Shihan is different, well I have seen some things. For starters, ya they go hard here. Not at first, but I was told there is a point that intensity picks up a lot. Secondly Some of the stances have a few different variants that I have not seen on any videos or pictures. Like our Ichimonji, we have the various classical variants, then there is a variant that was described to me as more combative. It has the elbow bent a little bit, bringing the hand closer to the center line to defend the center. In mma, I have a vaguely similar stance oddly enough, and It does infact work to better protect the center.

I get the impression that there is a lot more differences, and ill discover them with time. This place has a different feel about it. My gut tells me, its going to get a lot harder and I don't mean difficulty harder.(even though that is what is going to increase as well)

Edit to add I used DPS because its old habit. I did indeed mean to use it as "damage per strike" but I typed DPS as in "damage per second". I used to play EVE Online and was a min/maxer.(someone who tries to get the max of a specific thing. my case was DPS.)
Ill have some more detailed thoughts later. Im also going to update my personal training thread, with some other insights.

 

[SteveNC]

A violent person doesn't spar. They don't bow before you or touch gloves with you or smile at you when you get a good shot in during a Thursday night workout at the gym. They don't practice kata (no offense) or techniques in front of a mirror.

I wonder how many people here actually simulate what a real attack from a dangerous person or persons would be like other than the obvious.

1 move to end an attack is perfect. 3 moves isn't ideal but should be the maximum at which you strive in your training. You get beyond that and the likelihood of you getting hurt goes through the roof.

 

[SteveNC]

Chris Parker. You said "Hmm..."DPS".... "Damage Per Second"... I had to look that up. Video game terminology isn't really that usable here... for a range of reasons. For the record, you'd need to clarify a lot here... what "modern strikers" are you talking about? Sporting systems (such as boxing, kickboxing, MMA) will teach you to stagger the power/impact of your strikes so you're still able to continue fighting for multiple rounds... the idea is that you gradually wear the opponent down, test their defences, look for openings, and so on. Some non-sporting systems seek to overwhelm (such as a number of Chinese systems, Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut etc), so might focus on a large number of strikes applied in rapid-fire bursts. We don't do that. We hit to defined targets with a hell of a lot behind them, with the idea of doing as much with one strike as another might with multiples. I had a Wing Chun student once throw a series of chain punches into a pad I was holding, after which he turned to me and asked if I could tell how many strikes he'd thrown. When I couldn't, he looked satisfied, smiled, and said "Exactly! If you can't keep up, how can you block them all?". I told him to hold the pad, and hit it once. That one hit was significantly more than anything he'd thrown, as our mechanics put our entire bodyweight behind everything... he winced, turned away, and shook some feeling back into his hand. "How many was that?""

Chris parker, you also said "Nope" to my description of Ichimonji. I was just describing how it felt, if im wrong can you please point me in the right direction? It just feels like a spear.. Maybe not the best description but that is how it feels.


Im very short on time, I need to come back tonight with a longer more detailed response but I want to focus on this for now. They way you are describing mma/boxing/kickboxing training is not how I experienced it. I was never once, either in my boxing training by my 7 time champion coach or both sets of my mma instructors to gradually wear him down and make the fight last. In fact we were instructed in the opposite, always looking for the finish. We conditioned on the premise we may need to fight for 25 minutes, so we conditioned as hard as we could so would could last as long as we could. How ever, as I stated, I was never at any point instructed to do anything to drag on the duration of the fight.

This was not something any of my coach's wanted. We were always looking to end it right now right there as fast as we could. We trained for the worst case scenario which is 5rounds with 25 minutes of total fighting but our training focused on ending it asap.

With regards to how Nagase Shihan is different, well I have seen some things. For starters, ya they go hard here. Not at first, but I was told there is a point that intensity picks up a lot. Secondly Some of the stances have a few different variants that I have not seen on any videos or pictures. Like our Ichimonji, we have the various classical variants, then there is a variant that was described to me as more combative. It has the elbow bent a little bit, bringing the hand closer to the center line to defend the center. In mma, I have a vaguely similar stance oddly enough, and It does infact work to better protect the center.

I get the impression that there is a lot more differences, and ill discover them with time. This place has a different feel about it. My gut tells me, its going to get a lot harder and I don't mean difficulty harder.(even though that is what is going to increase as well)

Edit to add I used DPS because its old habit. I did indeed mean to use it as "damage per strike" but I typed DPS as in "damage per second". I used to play EVE Online and was a min/maxer.(someone who tries to get the max of a specific thing. my case was DPS.)
Ill have some more detailed thoughts later. Im also going to update my personal training thread, with some other insights.

In an MMA environment I'm sure you are taught to end a "fight" quickly (who wouldn't) but the guy standing in front of you was probably a friend or training partner right? Your attitude and demeanor are far different when sparring in that environment. If you were to REALLY SPAR like you would defend yourself in a street attack what would happen to that friend and training partner?

 

[jks9199]

Im very short on time, I need to come back tonight with a longer more detailed response but I want to focus on this for now. They way you are describing mma/boxing/kickboxing training is not how I experienced it. I was never once, either in my boxing training by my 7 time champion coach or both sets of my mma instructors to gradually wear him down and make the fight last. In fact we were instructed in the opposite, always looking for the finish.

There's a difference between focusing on finishing a fight quickly, and taking it if comes along. Sports encourage a kind of "siege" mindset. In the real deal, I don't want a fight to go 25 minutes under any circumstances.

With regards to how Nagase Shihan is different, well I have seen some things. For starters, ya they go hard here. Not at first, but I was told there is a point that intensity picks up a lot. Secondly Some of the stances have a few different variants that I have not seen on any videos or pictures.

That just may not be accidental...

 

[K-man]

Im very short on time, I need to come back tonight with a longer more detailed response but I want to focus on this for now. They way you are describing mma/boxing/kickboxing training is not how I experienced it. I was never once, either in my boxing training by my 7 time champion coach or both sets of my mma instructors to gradually wear him down and make the fight last. In fact we were instructed in the opposite, always looking for the finish. We conditioned on the premise we may need to fight for 25 minutes, so we conditioned as hard as we could so would could last as long as we could. How ever, as I stated, I was never at any point instructed to do anything to drag on the duration of the fight.

This was not something any of my coach's wanted. We were always looking to end it right now right there as fast as we could. We trained for the worst case scenario which is 5rounds with 25 minutes of total fighting but our training focused on ending it asap.

Certainly you are trying to finish a fight as quickly as possible but in reality staged fights are normally between fighters of similar weight and similar skill. I'm sure Chris wasn't meaning that the fight was being prolonged for the spectacle. To finish a fight quickly is more good luck than good management so you do learn to pace yourself and look for openings and opportunities. Conditioning to last the full distance is fine but there is no way anyone can hit as hard as they can, as fast as they can and not be totally exhausted in about a minute. If you did that to an opponent in the ring while he was just covering, once you are spent you are also defenceless.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

A violent person doesn't spar. They don't bow before you or touch gloves with you or smile at you when you get a good shot in during a Thursday night workout at the gym. They don't practice kata (no offense) or techniques in front of a mirror.

I wonder how many people here actually simulate what a real attack from a dangerous person or persons would be like other than the obvious.

1 move to end an attack is perfect. 3 moves isn't ideal but should be the maximum at which you strive in your training. You get beyond that and the likelihood of you getting hurt goes through the roof.

Can't help yourself can you?
I actually agree with what you are saying but by throwing your little bit about Kata into your post is demonstrating your ignorance of kata, and it is offensive.

Kata is designed to use one move to finish a fight because potentially every technique is a finishing technique. If that technique fails, the following technique becomes the finishing move. Kata taught properly and used as it is designed is doing exactly what you are describing. It is just a different road to the same destination.
:asian:

 

[SteveNC]

I mentioned the fact that a violent person doesnt stand in front of a mirror either. I hope that doesnt offend people who stand in front of mirrors. You take this stuff way to personal man.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sporting systems (such as boxing, kickboxing, MMA) will teach you to stagger the power/impact of your strikes so you're still able to continue fighting for multiple rounds... the idea is that you gradually wear the opponent down, test their defences, look for openings, and so on.

They way you are describing mma/boxing/kickboxing training is not how I experienced it. I was never once, either in my boxing training by my 7 time champion coach or both sets of my mma instructors to gradually wear him down and make the fight last. In fact we were instructed in the opposite, always looking for the finish. We conditioned on the premise we may need to fight for 25 minutes, so we conditioned as hard as we could so would could last as long as we could. How ever, as I stated, I was never at any point instructed to do anything to drag on the duration of the fight.

This was not something any of my coach's wanted. We were always looking to end it right now right there as fast as we could. We trained for the worst case scenario which is 5rounds with 25 minutes of total fighting but our training focused on ending it asap.

A competent boxer/kickboxer/MMA fighter will absolutely train to develop one-shot knockout power and will do their best to finish a fight as quickly as possible. However the reality is that if you are up against a skilled, well-conditioned fighter who is expecting a fight and matches your size and experience, then you are highly unlikely to be able to land that knockout shot right away. Professional fighters are just too tough and have too good a defense. Thus the need for all the additional skills -jabs, feints, combinations, strategic attrition, etc. in order to break down those defenses and eventually land the knockout shot. (You do occasionally see quick knockouts in MMA, just because there are so many more kinds of attacks to defend from that sometimes a fighter will leave a gap in their defense and get punished.)

A typical street fighter will not have the defensive skills of a professional boxer and will be much more concerned with attacking than defending. Therefore in a violent self-defense confrontation skills like jabs and feints are likely to be unnecessary. You're much more likely to have the chance to land a knockout shot without the extra preparation you would need against a trained fighter in the ring. (Note that all of this is generalization and not necessarily true in every situation.)

1 move to end an attack is perfect. 3 moves isn't ideal but should be the maximum at which you strive in your training. You get beyond that and the likelihood of you getting hurt goes through the roof.

Yeah, ideally you would never need more than one move to finish an opponent. Also ideally you would never allow your opponent to hit you even once or get hold of you or take you to the ground or draw a weapon or take you by surprise. Any of those will also greatly increase the chance of you getting hurt.

Unfortunately we don't always have the scriptwriter and the fight choreographer on our side to make sure that we have complete dominant superiority over the bad guys. Therefore it's a good idea to make sure that we're prepared for the eventuality that we're not able to instantly dispatch our opponent without being touched.

 

[K-man]

I mentioned the fact that a violent person doesnt stand in front of a mirror either. I hope that doesnt offend people who stand in front of mirrors. You take this stuff way to personal man.

You didn't mention those who hit heavy bags, you didn't mention pad work, you didn't mention training on the ground ... all tools to help develop your skill. But you did take the opportunity to bag the main training tool of Okinawan Karate. You mentioned 'standing in front of a mirror' not shadow boxing or other relevant training tools. I don't take it personally. I refute your words on behalf of those here who use kata the way it was designed to be used.

 

[Chris Parker]

Im very short on time, I need to come back tonight with a longer more detailed response but I want to focus on this for now. They way you are describing mma/boxing/kickboxing training is not how I experienced it. I was never once, either in my boxing training by my 7 time champion coach or both sets of my mma instructors to gradually wear him down and make the fight last. In fact we were instructed in the opposite, always looking for the finish. We conditioned on the premise we may need to fight for 25 minutes, so we conditioned as hard as we could so would could last as long as we could. How ever, as I stated, I was never at any point instructed to do anything to drag on the duration of the fight.

There wasn't any implication of trying to "drag on the duration of the fight" in my comments... and I don't know of any system (sporting or otherwise) that doesn't train for the most efficient application of it's methods it can come up with. Tony actually does a really good job of explaining it, so I'll add to his comments in a bit.

This was not something any of my coach's wanted. We were always looking to end it right now right there as fast as we could. We trained for the worst case scenario which is 5rounds with 25 minutes of total fighting but our training focused on ending it asap.

Sure, but (for a range of reasons, some of which Tony mentions, some you've actually brought up yourself, and some I'll add in a moment) you wouldn't just go all out from the get-go... if an opportunity comes up (created or seen) to end it fast (an opening for a choke, armbar, knockout strike...), you take it. But you'll need to get there first.

With regards to how Nagase Shihan is different, well I have seen some things. For starters, ya they go hard here. Not at first, but I was told there is a point that intensity picks up a lot. Secondly Some of the stances have a few different variants that I have not seen on any videos or pictures. Like our Ichimonji, we have the various classical variants, then there is a variant that was described to me as more combative. It has the elbow bent a little bit, bringing the hand closer to the center line to defend the center. In mma, I have a vaguely similar stance oddly enough, and It does infact work to better protect the center.

Cool... but I'd be asking what makes the variation of Ichimonji more "combative"... which is the real crux of the question. More offensive, more aggressive, does not necessarily equal more "combative"...

I get the impression that there is a lot more differences, and ill discover them with time. This place has a different feel about it. My gut tells me, its going to get a lot harder and I don't mean difficulty harder.(even though that is what is going to increase as well)

Sure, and honestly, at this point whether it's more combative or not really is neither here nor there... the important thing is that you're getting value out of the classes. I just personally don't take things on face value, and comments that can be more marketing rhetoric tend to catch my curiosity (wondering if there's much behind them).

Edit to add I used DPS because its old habit. I did indeed mean to use it as "damage per strike" but I typed DPS as in "damage per second". I used to play EVE Online and was a min/maxer.(someone who tries to get the max of a specific thing. my case was DPS.)
Ill have some more detailed thoughts later. Im also going to update my personal training thread, with some other insights.

Okay.

A violent person doesn't spar. They don't bow before you or touch gloves with you or smile at you when you get a good shot in during a Thursday night workout at the gym. They don't practice kata (no offense) or techniques in front of a mirror.

Firstly, there's a difference between a "violent person" and a "street predator" (social or asocial)... many "violent people" do spar, they do practice kata, they do practice in front of a mirror, they do smile when you get a good shot in, and so on. For that matter, while not necessarily at a school/gym etc, yes, street predators (particularly the social form) do spar in some forms, while they don't bow or touch gloves, they do follow particular rituals, and practicing in front of a mirror? You have seen Taxi Driver, yeah?

There's a reason seasoned predators are good at what they do, and it's not them sitting around saying "gee, I'm really glad we don't do any of that formal training stuff..."

I wonder how many people here actually simulate what a real attack from a dangerous person or persons would be like other than the obvious.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the obvious" here... do you mean obvious physical attacks, such as punches and kicks? If so, it's not that obvious, as many tend to simulate attacks that broadly fit the description, but don't actually match reality.... as for "how many", can't say... but, well, here's at least one. And I'm not convinced that I'm that alone... although I do feel I'm in the minority, bluntly.

1 move to end an attack is perfect. 3 moves isn't ideal but should be the maximum at which you strive in your training. You get beyond that and the likelihood of you getting hurt goes through the roof.

It depends. I agree with the idea of seeking to end a confrontation quickly (and as safely as possible), but exactly how that is achieved can be fairly different depending on the system in question... as mentioned, Wing Chun will teach to overwhelm, with the idea that, so long as you're striking, they'll be trying to block/defend, which means that they aren't attacking... so you're only going to get hurt if you stop. Moving in to restrain (BJJ, arresting techniques etc) can leave you in a position/range to incur further injury, but if the system teaches you (or you're required to) move in and control, that could very easily be your safer option, rather than trying to use a different (less developed) skill set. Tactics need to fit the situation... and one particular tactic is not necessarily going to be the answer in all situations.

In an MMA environment I'm sure you are taught to end a "fight" quickly (who wouldn't) but the guy standing in front of you was probably a friend or training partner right? Your attitude and demeanor are far different when sparring in that environment. If you were to REALLY SPAR like you would defend yourself in a street attack what would happen to that friend and training partner?

Not really the reasons there.... at all.

There's a difference between focusing on finishing a fight quickly, and taking it if comes along. Sports encourage a kind of "siege" mindset. In the real deal, I don't want a fight to go 25 minutes under any circumstances.

Yep, completely.

That just may not be accidental...

Which is something I hinted at in another thread....

Certainly you are trying to finish a fight as quickly as possible but in reality staged fights are normally between fighters of similar weight and similar skill. I'm sure Chris wasn't meaning that the fight was being prolonged for the spectacle. To finish a fight quickly is more good luck than good management so you do learn to pace yourself and look for openings and opportunities. Conditioning to last the full distance is fine but there is no way anyone can hit as hard as they can, as fast as they can and not be totally exhausted in about a minute. If you did that to an opponent in the ring while he was just covering, once you are spent you are also defenceless.
:asian:

There's an argument that can be made that rules are (in part) designed to increase the spectacle of a match fight, but yeah, that's really nothing to do with what I was talking about.

A competent boxer/kickboxer/MMA fighter will absolutely train to develop one-shot knockout power and will do their best to finish a fight as quickly as possible. However the reality is that if you are up against a skilled, well-conditioned fighter who is expecting a fight and matches your size and experience, then you are highly unlikely to be able to land that knockout shot right away. Professional fighters are just too tough and have too good a defense. Thus the need for all the additional skills -jabs, feints, combinations, strategic attrition, etc. in order to break down those defenses and eventually land the knockout shot. (You do occasionally see quick knockouts in MMA, just because there are so many more kinds of attacks to defend from that sometimes a fighter will leave a gap in their defense and get punished.)

Exactly what I was meaning... thanks, Tony!

A typical street fighter will not have the defensive skills of a professional boxer and will be much more concerned with attacking than defending. Therefore in a violent self-defense confrontation skills like jabs and feints are likely to be unnecessary. You're much more likely to have the chance to land a knockout shot without the extra preparation you would need against a trained fighter in the ring. (Note that all of this is generalization and not necessarily true in every situation.)

There's also quite a difference in the starting range, the set-up, and so on.

Yeah, ideally you would never need more than one move to finish an opponent. Also ideally you would never allow your opponent to hit you even once or get hold of you or take you to the ground or draw a weapon or take you by surprise. Any of those will also greatly increase the chance of you getting hurt.

Unfortunately we don't always have the scriptwriter and the fight choreographer on our side to make sure that we have complete dominant superiority over the bad guys. Therefore it's a good idea to make sure that we're prepared for the eventuality that we're not able to instantly dispatch our opponent without being touched.

And, once more, completely agreed!

You didn't mention those who hit heavy bags, you didn't mention pad work, you didn't mention training on the ground ... all tools to help develop your skill. But you did take the opportunity to bag the main training tool of Okinawan Karate. You mentioned 'standing in front of a mirror' not shadow boxing or other relevant training tools. I don't take it personally. I refute your words on behalf of those here who use kata the way it was designed to be used.

Not just Okinawan karate, my friend....

 

[SteveNC]

Tony I agree. There very well could be a situation where you cant end a conflict quickly and you end up "fighting" instead. But how does traditional sparring help that person now involved in an all out street brawl? What does it teach the individual? How to take a punch? How to deal with getting stomped into the ground? If you are attacked and you can't end the conflict quickly what would make a person believe that they could take care of business in 30 seconds or a minute long fight?

If you are teaching people "self defense" you aren't doing your job by teaching them to fight (for prolonged periods) which is what sparring prepares people for.

 

[Kframe]

I used the word combative because that is what my instructor called it. Its not a variant ill be using at my level of training for a while. Firstly ya it is more aggressive. Its more of a attacking stance with the weight a little forward. There are likely more details but I was only given a short demo of it.

I understand what your saying now about mma training. Most of the time we were matched well. Which became a issue for me as time went on at my first place. They didn't retain hobbyist's very well. In fact out of all the hobbyists started I was the only one that remained. It got to the point that I was out of level appropriate partners. After the dismantling of the TKD guy they started having me train with the competitors. Which I feel was a mistake, because it was like putting a 1 week newb up against Iron Mike. I was so literally outclassed by them that I fell apart technique wise in sparring for a long time. I was so humiliated I quit. Which I regret as well because that coach was 100% invested in my personal transformation. Both physical and emotional.(punishments for self disparaging comments, constant reminders of the things I am doing good, ect)


Ok on sparring. It has been established that sparring is in no way congruent with real self defense. Even guys on sherdog agree with that, and they are militant in there mentality with regards to sparring. How ever what if despite it not being similar to SD, the supposition that those who do participate in sparring tend to do better in real situations then those who don't. That is the feeling that abounds in mma circles that I am apart of. They agree that sparring is not self defense, but they also believe that those who do good in sparring are more likely to perform better in a SD situation.

I don't think anyone has done any studies on this so we have no way of knowing. The only thing I can add is my near fight a while ago. I remember the adrenalin dump and how it made my muscles literally twitch. How all I could think of at that time was "slip, weave, left hook". How it took every ounce of my energy to now attack him when he touched my shoulder. I had been doing lots of mma sparring by then and I'm truly not sure how much that helped. I'm sure it helped a little bit, but probably not much. The energy just felt so different, it was like all at once. Was up all night because I couldn't sleep...

SteveNC, how do you feel about Krav maga? Check me if im wrong K man but don't they use a lot of paired partner drills? Steve if your ok with krav, why disparage Okinawan karate or other kata systems? Wouldn't karate bunkai of a kata be like Krav's pair'd drills? So if your going to hate on one, why not the others that use a similar setup for some training methodologies?

Like B.O im evolving on this issue. Looking back at my karate/mma/possibly JKD influenced mma instructor we did a hell of a lot more partner work then sparring. I found that I was picking up the new things quite quickly, especially as he added resistance to the partner work. I keep coming back to the karate deflections I was taught. For me they were dang near miraculous. Learn the movement, then he attacks you, slowly at first, and you use it to defend. I found that after a bit of time I was able to use them effectively in sparring. I loved it, as I never used many deflections before, didn't know any.

Im starting to think that sparring if done, should be used sparingly and not as the primary training vehicle.

This has been a fascinating discussion so far, thank you guys for having it and helping me with some personal issues all at the same time.

 

[SteveNC]

I used the word combative because that is what my instructor called it. Its not a variant ill be using at my level of training for a while. Firstly ya it is more aggressive. Its more of a attacking stance with the weight a little forward. There are likely more details but I was only given a short demo of it.

I understand what your saying now about mma training. Most of the time we were matched well. Which became a issue for me as time went on at my first place. They didn't retain hobbyist's very well. In fact out of all the hobbyists started I was the only one that remained. It got to the point that I was out of level appropriate partners. After the dismantling of the TKD guy they started having me train with the competitors. Which I feel was a mistake, because it was like putting a 1 week newb up against Iron Mike. I was so literally outclassed by them that I fell apart technique wise in sparring for a long time. I was so humiliated I quit. Which I regret as well because that coach was 100% invested in my personal transformation. Both physical and emotional.(punishments for self disparaging comments, constant reminders of the things I am doing good, ect)


Ok on sparring. It has been established that sparring is in no way congruent with real self defense. Even guys on sherdog agree with that, and they are militant in there mentality with regards to sparring. How ever what if despite it not being similar to SD, the supposition that those who do participate in sparring tend to do better in real situations then those who don't. That is the feeling that abounds in mma circles that I am apart of. They agree that sparring is not self defense, but they also believe that those who do good in sparring are more likely to perform better in a SD situation.

I don't think anyone has done any studies on this so we have no way of knowing. The only thing I can add is my near fight a while ago. I remember the adrenalin dump and how it made my muscles literally twitch. How all I could think of at that time was "slip, weave, left hook". How it took every ounce of my energy to now attack him when he touched my shoulder. I had been doing lots of mma sparring by then and I'm truly not sure how much that helped. I'm sure it helped a little bit, but probably not much. The energy just felt so different, it was like all at once. Was up all night because I couldn't sleep...

SteveNC, how do you feel about Krav maga? Check me if im wrong K man but don't they use a lot of paired partner drills? Steve if your ok with krav, why disparage Okinawan karate or other kata systems? Wouldn't karate bunkai of a kata be like Krav's pair'd drills? So if your going to hate on one, why not the others that use a similar setup for some training methodologies?

Like B.O im evolving on this issue. Looking back at my karate/mma/possibly JKD influenced mma instructor we did a hell of a lot more partner work then sparring. I found that I was picking up the new things quite quickly, especially as he added resistance to the partner work. I keep coming back to the karate deflections I was taught. For me they were dang near miraculous. Learn the movement, then he attacks you, slowly at first, and you use it to defend. I found that after a bit of time I was able to use them effectively in sparring. I loved it, as I never used many deflections before, didn't know any.

Im starting to think that sparring if done, should be used sparingly and not as the primary training vehicle.

This has been a fascinating discussion so far, thank you guys for having it and helping me with some personal issues all at the same time.

There is no kata in Krav Maga. In krav you have "retzev" which is practicing continuous movement. As far as my views on kata and okinawin karate (among others) I am not disparaging it so much as pointing out that it isn't needed in my opinion for self defense. Perhaps I just don't understand any of it as has been pointed out but I haven't run across one single person who came from a TMA who thought that kata was beneficial to them. Now I know what the follow up to that comment will be. It's the student and/or their past teachers fault. I look at it this way. If you were a karate instructor touting your art as great for self defense and 6 months in you teach me kata #1 can I fall back on that kata to defend myself against a street attack? The answer is a big fat NO and anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves. Now on the flipside of that I'm sure a 10 year practitioner of karate and kata could adequately defend themselves with or without ever having learned a kata. The people I teach self defense to don't have 10 years to become adequate.

 

[Kframe]

Steve, I didn't say there was kata. I asked specifically about the pair'd partner drills. Why are you ignoring the fact that karate's bunkai and kravs partner drills are infact similar? Doing kata is more then just moving through the steps, many have pointed out that the correct method involves partnering up and applying it. The applied kata, also called bunkai operates similarly to kravs partner drills. Why do you keep ignoring that simple fact? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that kata is not a playbook from start to finish to be used in a fight? That's not the purpose of it. Kata with out bunkai is worthless. Why would any karate instructor in 6months tell you which kata to use in a fight? That's not what they are for. They are a vehicle for learning techniques and application of techniques(bunkai).

You keep ignoring these facts and touting your own opinion which is not backed up by any evidence. Plenty of people here train kata with application as it was intended. Don't believe us, go look up Ian Abernathy. http://shop.iainabernethy.com/acatalog/DVDs_UK.html?gclid=CIXPv7KBrrwCFZBj7Aod43MA3Q

 

[ballen0351]

I look at it this way. If you were a karate instructor touting your art as great for self defense and 6 months in you teach me kata #1 can I fall back on that kata to defend myself against a street attack?

Yep you most certainly can

anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

well one of us is but its not me

 

[SteveNC]

Yep you most certainly canwell one of us is but its not me

Sorry but I don't think so. Doesn't even make sense to believe such a thing. Not the way its taught in the large majority of establishments

 

[SteveNC]

Steve, I didn't say there was kata. I asked specifically about the pair'd partner drills. Why are you ignoring the fact that karate's bunkai and kravs partner drills are infact similar? Doing kata is more then just moving through the steps, many have pointed out that the correct method involves partnering up and applying it. The applied kata, also called bunkai operates similarly to kravs partner drills. Why do you keep ignoring that simple fact? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that kata is not a playbook from start to finish to be used in a fight? That's not the purpose of it. Kata with out bunkai is worthless. Why would any karate instructor in 6months tell you which kata to use in a fight? That's not what they are for. They are a vehicle for learning techniques and application of techniques(bunkai). You keep ignoring these facts and touting your own opinion which is not backed up by any evidence. Plenty of people here train kata with application as it was intended. Don't believe us, go look up Ian Abernathy. http://shop.iainabernethy.com/acatalog/DVDs_UK.html?gclid=CIXPv7KBrrwCFZBj7Aod43MA3Q

Ian Abernathy? How many people are on that level? I go by what I see in front of me. By the people I deal with ever single day and what I have seen from former karate practitioners that seek better, more realistic training.don't shoot the messenger

 

[ballen0351]

Sorry but I don't think so. Doesn't even make sense to believe such a thing. Not the way its taught in the large majority of establishments

very basic Goju Kata we teach to kids what part couldn't be used?

 

[SteveNC]

very basic Goju Kata we teach to kids what part couldn't be used?

WOW that looks really cool. I give it an A++ for style and not much more than that.

 

[ballen0351]

WOW that looks really cool. I give it an A++ for style and not much more than that.

So your not going to answer the question huh? what part of that isn't useful in self defense?