dealing with someone much bigger

[loki09789]

That is why I am a fan of techniques that at the very least induce pain and at the very best create operational/mechanical disfunction. Break an arm/leg/finger.... if it induces pain and takes the wind out of there sails, great. If it simply creates a lack of functional control, it takes away a leverage/power generation tool or a striking/defense tool. If it gets both, beauty.

 

[7starmantis]

Thought experiment: What if, for all your insistence, you're wrong? Is there room in your universe for such a possibility? I doubt it, but what if?...

Offer me proof and I will concede.

7sm

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Post-script: Black Bear...the patello-femoral articulation does count as a joint. The facets on the patella are lined with hyaline cartilage, is lubricated by synovial fluid, and it articulates with the intercondylar groove at the distal end of the femur. Don't recall specifically, but can look it up...think it's a diarthroses.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Offer me proof and I will concede.

7sm

"All evidence eventually leads to conclusions for which there are no proofs."
-- Frank Herbert, Dune

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

7*M...don't make me break out my Golden Chicken Kung-Fu association Key-Chain and whack you with it. The price alone ensures me I would destroy you utterly. Besides, it came with a t-shirt, so back off, babe. It is "Babe", isn't it?

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Hey i must really be invinsible since i ordered my Imperial Golden Chicken Kung-Fu Masters Certificate and lazy noodle for beating people off with....

I guess we will be Kung-Fu fighting and see who makes the best moo shoe pork lol

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

It doesn't matter. I've ordered my Golden Chicken Kung-Fu Master's Certificate and Key-Chain over the internet, and now I'm invincible. The ad says it; it must be true. What would anybody else know about anything? (P.S., did I tell you I'm a Golden Chicken Kung-Fu Master?...that makes me invincible.)

 

[Black Bear]

KKK - Well hey, you learn something new every day.

CGD - Well as with everything in combat, results may vary. It's always possible to have the last word by saying, "well that might not work. I knew a guy once who..." But as old man Blauer say, "in the absence of nothing you have to do SOMETHING" so we're trying to discuss here what are the options of choice. Taking out the legs is an option of choice. It is an accessible target that is of great functional importance whether standing or grounded.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Hey i must really be invinsible since i ordered my Imperial Golden Chicken Kung-Fu Masters Certificate and lazy noodle for beating people off with....

I guess we will be Kung-Fu fighting and see who makes the best moo shoe pork lol

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Darn it! Where am I going to come up wiht the cash to buy a defense to the noodle?:boing2:

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

There is a way

but its an ancient chinese secret :asian:
noodle can be defeated with a bowl of hot water


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Darn it! Where am I going to come up wiht the cash to buy a defense to the noodle?:boing2:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

An offering for the sacrificial altar: If we spent the time we spend on this chat in the gym or studio, instead of debating the academics of what we might do in circumstance X, we'd be developing the badass-ness to do it.

Talk amongst yourselves...I'm feeling verklempt.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Sometimes you are so right its scarey
Good point brought up


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

An offering for the sacrificial altar: If we spent the time we spend on this chat in the gym or studio, instead of debating the academics of what we might do in circumstance X, we'd be developing the badass-ness to do it.

Talk amongst yourselves...I'm feeling verklempt.

 

[7starmantis]

Lets try and keep on topic shall we?


7sm

 

[moving target]

That is simply put, wrong. You are rulling out all system of MA that use the attackers force against them. Wait, thats most MA. That is just a wrong assumption that is simply contrived on falshood. Its simply not true. Take your two identically trained persons, their ability to inflict or absorb "correctly" will be comparativly equal. Sure, by mass alone pure force can be absorbed more with more mass, but most MA don't teach simple absorbing techniques. Who goes out in the street, gets attacked, and just stands there trying to absorb the attack?

What falsehood? If both people have equal skill the both know everything the other does. Now granted the statement I made is somewhat ambiguous, It’s kind of hard for all things to be equal when you are talking about two people with separate body structures. What I meant was if the only difference between the two is mass than the more massive person will most probably win. Bottom line is a more massive person can absorb more force from percussive attacks, can generate more force with percussive attacks and has more mass to utilize in any situation allowing for mass to be leveraged (like in a throw or some situations in grappling).

I don’t see how using someone’s force against them factors in, they can both do that. I don’t know what you mean by “their ability to inflict or absorb "correctly" will be comparativly equal” I really can’t respond to that until you describe the correct way to inflict and absorb. I also don’t know what you mean by “simple absorbing techniques” So if you could clarify there also please? As to that last question, everyone gets hit sometime. The bigger person will be in better condition to take hits without sustaining serious damage. You didn’t really state how my statement was contrived on falsehood. I didn’t state how it was contrived, but what falsehoods are you referring to? And why do you think I ruled out use of the attackers force against them?

The only way I can see the statement being “simply not true” is if both people are trained specifically to use methods of fighting that have little dependence on mass and NOT to use any methods that do. But we already know that the smaller of the two “can hit, kick, elbow, and knee pretty hard and pretty fast”. Those are techniques that can benefit from additional mass. We don’t really know anything more.

 

[loki09789]

QUOTE=Black Bear]It is an accessible target that is of great functional importance whether standing or grounded.[/QUOTE]

If you are standing aren't you grounded, as opposed to floating/flying? come on it was funny!

 

[loki09789]

Bottom line is a more massive person can absorb more force from percussive attacks, can generate more force with percussive attacks and has more mass to utilize in any situation allowing for mass to be leveraged (like in a throw or some situations in grappling).

QUOTE]

I am getting the idea that there is an assumption that 'larger' means quality muscle density and subtle mass coordination and a lack of fat. It is a false assumption. All things being as equal as they realistically can be on an artistic style/technical level does not mean that a larger man who is larger/stronger by virtue of his size isn't carrying a larger fat percentage that equates to dead weight that will sap energy and feasibly restrict blood flow if it is really severe.

Look at the difference between a heavy wt. boxer and a lighter wt. division boxer - both with as much time in boxing with equal boxing ring experience.

Size will NOT be the deciding factor because the lighter fighters endurance and dynamic motion will frustrate the average heavy wt. OF COURSE the striking power of the hvy wt. will cause more damage, but because there is more mass to move, it will be slower than punches from ltr wt division boxers, therefore easier for the little man to read and react to. I would say, all things being equal technically/stylistically, it comes down to the character, control and courage of the fighter that will decide the fight NOT mass.

 

[Black Bear]

If you are standing aren't you grounded, as opposed to floating/flying? come on it was funny!

*crickets chirp*


Your point about size not mattering as much as some athletic attributes is well made. I guess the point is that there ARE some hassles that are specific to dealing with a bigger guy, and they do tend to have a strength advantage on the average. I've rolled with much bigger guys who have less training and are less fit than myself. Sometimes I had my hands full, so to speak.

 

[7starmantis]

What falsehood? If both people have equal skill the both know everything the other does. Now granted the statement I made is somewhat ambiguous, It’s kind of hard for all things to be equal when you are talking about two people with separate body structures. What I meant was if the only difference between the two is mass than the more massive person will most probably win. Bottom line is a more massive person can absorb more force from percussive attacks, can generate more force with percussive attacks and has more mass to utilize in any situation allowing for mass to be leveraged (like in a throw or some situations in grappling).

That is the falsehood I was refering to right there. "if the only difference between the two is mass than the more massive person will most probably win". That is a false assumption based on a false belief that more mass equals more power, or more fighting ability, or more aggression, or more anything. That is simply not true. There are system that use techniques that do not rely on pure muscle and those techniques can most deffinatly be used against a much larger attacker without a lowered quota of effectivness because the larger person is the hulk. More mass doesn't make you less human.

I don’t see how using someone’s force against them factors in, they can both do that. I don’t know what you mean by “their ability to inflict or absorb "correctly" will be comparativly equal” I really can’t respond to that until you describe the correct way to inflict and absorb. I also don’t know what you mean by “simple absorbing techniques” So if you could clarify there also please? As to that last question, everyone gets hit sometime. The bigger person will be in better condition to take hits without sustaining serious damage. You didn’t really state how my statement was contrived on falsehood. I didn’t state how it was contrived, but what falsehoods are you referring to? And why do you think I ruled out use of the attackers force against them?

Just because you can punch and I can punch, does that mean we cannot punch each other? That ridiculous. Just because they can both use techniques utilizing the others mass doesn't neutralize their effectivness. I think you have placed too much faith on simple mass alone. AS to their ability to absorb or inflict with power, they are equal if they are truly equal in skill level. Do you believe you can learn to yield or "absorb" power from an attacker? If so is that contingent on mass? No. I can learn to yield just like my little niece could, or my grandfather, or you, or Ronnie Coleman. I will sya this, Ronnie's ability to yield would be of a lesser degree simply because of his mass. To generate a powerful punch or kick, do you believe it is completely about moveing your mass into the punch? If so, I feel sorry for you if you get in a real fight with soeone faster than yourself. Sure, someone wiht more muscle will naturally hit harder, but a fight isn't that cut and dry, remember the yielding principles we talked about? Now, I'm not saying the "muscle head" couldn't win, just that he doesn't have this huge supernatural advantage because of his mass, thats ridiculous.

7sm

 

[moving target]

To Loki09789, That’s why I said my statement was ambiguous. It isn’t possible to have all things equal except mass in real life which leaves the question of what attribute is going to give. However I meant it somewhat literally. If you take all the attributes a fighter has and say they are all equal, but you throw in extra mass after the fact (so they have the same speed, strength to weight ratio, etc..). In that case I don’t see how mass would not be a factor.

As to the boxing thing, if there is not a large discrepancy in mass I agree, but I don’t think there’s a flyweight in the world that could take down Lewis. Mass will make a difference just not much of one If the discrepancy is not great.

To 7starmantis,

That is a false assumption based on a false belief that more mass equals more power, or more fighting ability, or more aggression, or more anything. That is simply not true.

Ok Force=Mass x Acceleration. Equal strength-weight ratio but more mass = more force.
I don’t think I said anything about power.
I didn’t bring up aggression.
More bottom line fighting ability? Based upon the force thing I think mass can give an edge in some areas of fighting, as such if the fight ever involves any of those areas than it gives an advantage in bottom line fighting ability.
Or anything? Are you suggesting Mass has absolutely zero factor in fighting?

There are system that use techniques that do not rely on pure muscle and those techniques can most deffinatly be used against a much larger attacker without a lowered quota of effectivness because the larger person is the hulk. More mass doesn't make you less human.

Unless you are postulating that there are systems that use techniques that have no relation to mass than mass does have a factor.

Just because you can punch and I can punch, does that mean we cannot punch each other? That ridiculous.

I didn’t say that.

Just because they can both use techniques utilizing the others mass doesn't neutralize their effectivness.

My point was that both people can use those technique. It is by no means a negation of the existence of the techniques or any kind of mitigation of their effectiveness. It is simply a statement that the bigger guy can use the techniques as well.

I think you have placed too much faith on simple mass alone.

I obviously don’t think so, but I think you may be misreading my posts as saying that mass is an all deciding factor, all I’m saying is mass matters and mass is a factor in a fight.

AS to their ability to absorb or inflict with power, they are equal if they are truly equal in skill level. Do you believe you can learn to yield or "absorb" power from an attacker? If so is that contingent on mass? No. I can learn to yield just like my little niece could, or my grandfather, or you, or Ronnie Coleman. I will sya this, Ronnie's ability to yield would be of a lesser degree simply because of his mass.

I agree that you can learn to absorb/yield to force.
I agree this learned skill is not contingent on mass.
But that has nothing to do with my statement, I wasn’t talking about your skill to “roll with punches” And what I was talkingabout is not replaced by trained yielding but rather it stacks with it. They enhance each other.
Absorbing/yielding to a blow is relatively equivalent to hitting the brakes in a car to come to a stop as apposed to running it into a wall at the pre-breaking speed to stop. Within this analogy(of automobiles), If you are in a large vehicle, say a hummer. You are not moving and you are hit by a small vehicle, say an old VW beetle. Your vehicles (the hummer) will sustain relatively less damage than if the rolls were reversed and speed kept the same. Now to tie the first analogy to the second, if you take the second analogy only you allow for the hummer to be moving directly away from the beetle (on the same path the beetle is driving on) say at half the speed, the damage to the hummer will be less than in the second analogy but still, if you reverse the rolls the hummer will come out a head of the beetle if the beetle is the one getting hit.

Unless you are saying both fighters have the capability to reduce the force of any and every strike delivered within the fight to a level of force so low that the effects are negligible to the less massive fighter, than mass makes a difference here as well. You even stated,

Sure, by mass alone pure force can be absorbed more with more mass

Whatever force is left after a strike is “absorbed” to whatever degree goes on to be dispersed in some fashion. If that force is great enough it will damage your body. That is where mass helps (safely)absorb force.

To generate a powerful punch or kick, do you believe it is completely about moveing your mass into the punch? If so, I feel sorry for you if you get in a real fight with soeone faster than yourself.

I never said that, and I don’t think I said anything even close to that.

Sure, someone wiht more muscle will naturally hit harder, but a fight isn't that cut and dry, remember the yielding principles we talked about?

This is a hypothetical statement where all things but mass are equal. So it can be that cut and dry. Both people can yield, I don’t see that as a major factor. No where did I say a small guy can’t take a hit.

Now, I'm not saying the "muscle head" couldn't win, just that he doesn't have this huge supernatural advantage bcause of his mass, thats ridiculous.

Show me where I said “he has this huge supernatural advantage because of his mass” that is ridiculous. And I never said the smaller fighter couldn’t win, I simply said it was improbable.

I still come to the same conclusion, unless all aspects of a fight where mass is a factor are negated of mitigated to the point of being inconsequential the more massive fighter has the advantage when all other aspects are equal.

 

[loki09789]

To Loki09789, That’s why I said my statement was ambiguous. It isn’t possible to have all things equal except mass in real life which leaves the question of what attribute is going to give. However I meant it somewhat literally. If you take all the attributes a fighter has and say they are all equal, but you throw in extra mass after the fact (so they have the same speed, strength to weight ratio, etc..). In that case I don’t see how mass would not be a factor.

With this view, you are assuming that one of the equal components is also style/art/system of fighting. I think we have all seen small, light fighters who are far more adept and effective within an art than some of the largest fighters in the same school - both under the same instructor/with the same system of power delivery/speed training.... I am saying that there seems to be an implication, or more to the point I am inferring, in your posts that size will be the decisive factor between fighters. I disagree with this point because even if the fighters are 'equal' in all ways, except system (heck, even within the same style/art) as well as mass, the person with more experience controlling the tactics and outcomes of fighting will have the advantage, not the larger fighter.

Experience, intelligence, blind luck.... even equal in potential and development will be individual in application so I would say that they are more decisive factors than simply the physical attribute of size.

Size doesn't matter if I take/have the initiative on the street againsts an experimentally equal fighter, with larger mass, and jab him in the eye or create a disfunction of a part of the body that will not benefit because of extra mass (any 'soft' target) therefore cannot absorb force better (groin, throat, eyes, soft tissue of the gums, ear drum pops), these types of soft targets cannot absorb more force because of mass, but there are some schools that train in Iron Body conditioning that claim to develop these targets based on yielding and chi enhancement as apposed to making them bigger... of course if they could make a certain soft target bigger they would be rich.

The power or force equation you are using does have a realistic terminus of application because larger massed things have to fight gravity harder, therefore will fatigue faster. Fatigue will happen faster, especially if the larger/smaller fighters are only equal in endurance conditioning training. In the category of conditioning, the larger fighter would need to be 'fitter' than the smaller fighter to extend his endurance survival.

Again, these points are made based on my perception that you are saying that mass will be the deciding factor between two 'equal' fighters. If that isn't the case.... oops

 

[loki09789]

"As to the boxing thing, if there is not a large discrepancy in mass I agree, but I don’t think there’s a flyweight in the world that could take down Lewis. Mass will make a difference just not much of one If the discrepancy is not great."

This is based on the idea that a knock out is required to win a boxing match. Boxing is a sport based on points and scoring power shots on certain targets while keeping the other fighter from scoring the same or more points on you.

If the two fighters are equal in training and skill as well as physically measurable attributes, the heavy weight would be at a tactical disadvantage because he will not be able to read and react at the same speed as a light weight fighter. Light wt fighters may not have the power, but they do have faster punches and faster combination speed. I know this argument moves us out of the 'all things equal' but disparity in size/mass limits what 'all' means. Speed is the advantage of the lighter fighter.

That said, the light fighter will not be able to withstand the power of the hvy wt, BUT the heavy wt, still has to connect.

Again, I would say that the experience and luck of the fighter is more decisive to the outcome than mass