Sparring: More Harm Than Good?

[sgtmac_46]

I agree with that, you can't really count on any one technique to end a fight. I watched the Jackson-Griffin fight on Saturday (killer fight BTW) and the commentator said that in a fight he had in Brazil, Griffin had a broken arm and refused to tap, continued fighting and won the fight with his good arm. Sometimes you gotta realize that you need to have contingencies set up in case your "knock out shot" doesn't.

Thanks for teaching me the trick.

Yeah, decapitation is really one of the few '100%' reliable fight enders.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

This is an awesome topic. Personally I am in full favour of sparring. As I see it it can't fully prepare you for the danger of live situations and I have enough live experience to appreciate that. But it is better than nothing. It means that I keep myself sharp enough to a be cut above the norm whenever necessary.
Also, I would point out that I'm personally not going to wait to be attacked by anybody. If I percieve a situation as being potentially dangerous to me I'm going to initiate the attack. My instructor used to say, 'Do to others as they would do to you; only do it first and ten times as bad.' Sparring can get you used to taking the initiative and throwing the first punch which is a fear I've seen in many highly skilled and competent martial artists. Whether they have reservations about using their techniques is unknown to me if they have then it touches on the previous post about what TMA's are for.
But I'm rambling and it's not productive. The point I'm making is that sparring, although nowhere close to actual combat, is better than not sparring at all. It allows you to become comfortable with certain amounts of adrenaline in your body from taking knocks and being put under a little physical danger. It gets you used to seeing through your opponents techniques and spotting the tiniest signals that you are going to be attacked. Mostly it gets you used to being on the offensive from the start.

 

[allenjp]

This is an awesome topic. Personally I am in full favour of sparring. As I see it it can't fully prepare you for the danger of live situations and I have enough live experience to appreciate that. But it is better than nothing. It means that I keep myself sharp enough to a be cut above the norm whenever necessary.
Also, I would point out that I'm personally not going to wait to be attacked by anybody. If I percieve a situation as being potentially dangerous to me I'm going to initiate the attack. My instructor used to say, 'Do to others as they would do to you; only do it first and ten times as bad.' Sparring can get you used to taking the initiative and throwing the first punch which is a fear I've seen in many highly skilled and competent martial artists. Whether they have reservations about using their techniques is unknown to me if they have then it touches on the previous post about what TMA's are for.
But I'm rambling and it's not productive. The point I'm making is that sparring, although nowhere close to actual combat, is better than not sparring at all. It allows you to become comfortable with certain amounts of adrenaline in your body from taking knocks and being put under a little physical danger. It gets you used to seeing through your opponents techniques and spotting the tiniest signals that you are going to be attacked. Mostly it gets you used to being on the offensive from the start.

The tiniest little signs of agression, and you attack, and ten times as bad as what you think they will do will be...no offense (wouldn't want to show you any agression) but you may want to read some of the threads that have to do with the legal ramifications of your actions in a physical confrontation.

Here's one: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64547

 

[allenjp]

Yeah, decapitation is really one of the few '100%' reliable fight enders.

or a .45 caliber sized hole in the opponents forehead...

 

[chinto]

Sure. I'll use my 80# recurve bow and a score of bodkins. Starting at 50 meters...

:rofl:

ahh bodkin arrows.... you got neighbors who wear milonese plate, or perhaps Gothic or Maximilian plate armor around?? you just have to love a good bodkin against mail or good plate armor! really gives them the point of the argument at a distance!! you have to use a good penetrating reasoning strategy with your arguments in such cases. you know, really loose your full arguments!! :knight2:
uh ohh i have to stop now! .. this punishment is going from bard to verse!!!!

ohh and he really should keep that shield up in position.. especially with a heater shield!

 

[sgtmac_46]

or a .45 caliber sized hole in the opponents forehead...

Often.....though don't count on a bullet in the head to stop the fight.....especially from a lessor caliber.

Anecdotal true story:

I know a gentleman who's spent his life skirting the law.....we'll call him 'Dave'. He and another gentleman who used to be 'business' partners had a falling out.....we'll call the other man 'Ken'. Both of these men are the kind of rough men prone to violence that most folks really never meet.

At any rate some threats had been made back and forth and Dave, knowing Ken's unpredictable violent nature and mental instability took them very seriously. One day while Dave was at a mutual friends house, Ken shows up there. As an example of how violence in the REALLY REAL world begins, Ken walks in and sees Dave sitting at a kitchen table and walks over and in a pleasant manner says 'Hi'.

Dave, having decent instincts, already has his 9mm Ruger in his hand next to his right leg out of sight responds. 'Hi Ken'......and without missing a beat Ken raises a .22 caliber revolver and fires a shot point blank at Dave, striking him in the forehead. Dave falls backwards in his chair as Ken fires another shot, which passes through the edge of his left bicep.

Now, Dave doesn't know he's been shot in the forehead, but he does know he's being shot at. Dave rolls backwards and lifts his 9mm and he and Ken exchange multiple shots as Dave is running down the hallway.

Dave, being a decent shot, has managed to strike Ken 9 times, most of them in the upper torso, and put 9mm rounds in to Ken's liver and lungs and a couple of other organs. Dave reloads and Ken is laying on the floor. Dave walks back in with his now reloaded 9mm and Ken starts begging him to call an ambulance. Dave tells him he's not calling anything that Ken should just DIE! And Ken raises the .22 again, and Dave puts a couple more rounds in to him.

Now, Dave has been shot twice, once directly in the forehead and once in the shoulder. Dave does not know he's been shot, he thinks Ken hit him with the pistol and then shot AT him. He feels pain in his arm and realizes he's been shot there, but it's a grazing wound of no consequence. Ken dies on the floor in a pool of his own blood, having shot first what should have been a fatal shot.

Oh, by the way, as Dave was a known criminal, the local prosecutor charged Dave with 2nd Degree murder based on the notion that he went too far in coming back after escaping down the hallway and shooting Ken again (this is prior to the current Missouri incarnation of the enhanced castle doctrine). A jury took exactly 20 minutes to come back with a 'Not Guilty' verdict based on self-defense.




*All names have been changed to protect those involved. The case is several years old and already adjudicated. The above story comes from witness statements and the statements of 'Dave'......'Ken' could not be reached for comment.

 

[kidswarrior]

Often.....though don't count on a bullet in the head to stop the fight.....especially from a lessor caliber.

Anecdotal true story:

I know a gentleman who's spent his life skirting the law.....we'll call him 'Dave'. He and another gentleman who used to be 'business' partners had a falling out.....we'll call the other man 'Ken'. Both of these men are the kind of rough men prone to violence that most folks really never meet.

At any rate some threats had been made back and forth and Dave, knowing Ken's unpredictable violent nature and mental instability took them very seriously. One day while Dave was at a mutual friends house, Ken shows up there. As an example of how violence in the REALLY REAL world begins, Ken walks in and sees Dave sitting at a kitchen table and walks over and in a pleasant manner says 'Hi'.

Dave, having decent instincts, already has his 9mm Ruger in his hand next to his right leg out of sight responds. 'Hi Ken'......and without missing a beat Ken raises a .22 caliber revolver and fires a shot point blank at Dave, striking him in the forehead. Dave falls backwards in his chair as Ken fires another shot, which passes through the edge of his left bicep.

Now, Dave doesn't know he's been shot in the forehead, but he does know he's being shot at. Dave rolls backwards and lifts his 9mm and he and Ken exchange multiple shots as Dave is running down the hallway.

Dave, being a decent shot, has managed to strike Ken 9 times, most of them in the upper torso, and put 9mm rounds in to Ken's liver and lungs and a couple of other organs. Dave reloads and Ken is laying on the floor. Dave walks back in with his now reloaded 9mm and Ken starts begging him to call an ambulance. Dave tells him he's not calling anything that Ken should just DIE! And Ken raises the .22 again, and Dave puts a couple more rounds in to him.

Now, Dave has been shot twice, once directly in the forehead and once in the shoulder. Dave does not know he's been shot, he thinks Ken hit him with the pistol and then shot AT him. He feels pain in his arm and realizes he's been shot there, but it's a grazing wound of no consequence. Ken dies on the floor in a pool of his own blood, having shot first what should have been a fatal shot.

Oh, by the way, as Dave was a known criminal, the local prosecutor charged Dave with 2nd Degree murder based on the notion that he went too far in coming back after escaping down the hallway and shooting Ken again (this is prior to the current Missouri incarnation of the enhanced castle doctrine). A jury took exactly 20 minutes to come back with a 'Not Guilty' verdict based on self-defense.




*All names have been changed to protect those involved. The case is several years old and already adjudicated. The above story comes from witness statements and the statements of 'Dave'......'Ken' could not be reached for comment.

The ring of truth. Love it.

 

[Empty Hands]

Often.....though don't count on a bullet in the head to stop the fight.....especially from a lessor caliber.

Indeed. This guy lived.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Whiskey.....Tango.....FOXTROT!!!?!?!?!?!!!!!???

 

[Sukerkin]

Seconded, Andy. How on earth?

Is that genuine, EH? I mean, the hilts inside his head :faints:.

 

[Empty Hands]

Whiskey.....Tango.....FOXTROT!!!?!?!?!?!!!!!???

Seconded, Andy. How on earth?

Is that genuine, EH? I mean, the hilts inside his head :faints:.

Oh yes my friends, entirely genuine. It was a completely random attack when this gentleman opened the door. He then walked down to a friend's house to get help. The knife was removed 4 hours later, and this fellow survived more or less intact. He has some memory problems, headaches, and his left hand is paralyzed, but that isn't bad considering. This was also the largest object ever removed from a human skull.

This sort of thing is more common than you think. Phineas Gage had a railroad spike blown right through his frontal lobe and survived. He is famous in psychological circles because that specific damage changed his personality in interesting ways. I also remember seeing the news of when a kid fell on a combine spike which completely pierced his skull from right between his eyes. He recovered completely.

 

[kidswarrior]

Oh yes my friends, entirely genuine.

This sort of thing is more common than you think. Phineas Gage had a railroad spike blown right through his frontal lobe and survived. He is famous in psychological circles because that specific damage changed his personality in interesting ways.

Phineas Gage has always fascinated me. Quite a story, and what first got me thinking about the different functions to different parts of the brain.

Kinda puts a new light on one-step drills where we practice assuming a hard punch here will cause this reaction, eh???

 

[Empty Hands]

Kinda puts a new light on one-step drills where we practice assuming a hard punch here will cause this reaction, eh???

So if I punch in the forehead, I cause a loss of inhibitions and good behavior in my opponent, and if I punch him in the side of the head, I cause memory problems? Cool.

 

[shihansmurf]

So I've got about twenty great cookbooks in my kitchen. I own a set of absurdly expensive cookware, a complete set of hinkle knives, and a good selection of quality foodstuffs. I have watched countless hours of cooking shows. My father, a Chef by trade, spent years training me to cook. I've eaten meals that span the spectrum from gourmet to Mc Donalds.

Does this mean I'm a Chef?

Does it mean I can even make SpaghettiO's?

All the above means squat.

I'm a good cook because I've actually cooked thousands of meals. Some turned out well, others not so well.

I've had 24 years in the dojo.....

Mark

 

[sgtmac_46]

Indeed. This guy lived.

EXCEDERINE HEADACHE #25!!!!

 

[Steve]

Well, as I'm new around here I'm not sure how many times these threads have been wrung through.

In my opinion, the crux of this situation has to do with a personal belief regarding how one learns. Personally, I think that sparring is critical to internalizing technique. I won't bother to go into why, as I'm sure you guys have heard it all a million times. What I'm not sure about, having read this thread, is that it's not an either/or situation. In BJJ, we drill a lot. I work on flow drills, solo drills at home, partner drills during open mat. We work positional drills where there is a specific goal, and we work compliant drills where the intent is to learn details. I'd say that fully 1/2 of each class is spent working through drills. We drill in warm-ups as we roll, hip escape, or sit through up and down the mat. We then drill technique. Forgive me if I'm telling you guys something you already know. It just sounds like there are a lot of people who just don't understand that even in an "alive" style such as BJJ, drills are understood to be critical.

Understanding this, I'm baffled when someone would suggest that we stop with drills and not take the next logical step, which is to incorporate increasing degrees of spontaneous and random resistance up to and including sparring. Taking this one step further, I think it's critical to get someone sparring ASAP. I agree with John Will 100% when he asserts that people don't learn something 100% BEFORE they do it; they only learn it AFTER they've done it. In other words, the details only follow context. Without context, in this case in the form of sparring, the details are largely unaccessible.

 

[allenjp]

Well, as I'm new around here I'm not sure how many times these threads have been wrung through.

In my opinion, the crux of this situation has to do with a personal belief regarding how one learns. Personally, I think that sparring is critical to internalizing technique. I won't bother to go into why, as I'm sure you guys have heard it all a million times. What I'm not sure about, having read this thread, is that it's not an either/or situation. In BJJ, we drill a lot. I work on flow drills, solo drills at home, partner drills during open mat. We work positional drills where there is a specific goal, and we work compliant drills where the intent is to learn details. I'd say that fully 1/2 of each class is spent working through drills. We drill in warm-ups as we roll, hip escape, or sit through up and down the mat. We then drill technique. Forgive me if I'm telling you guys something you already know. It just sounds like there are a lot of people who just don't understand that even in an "alive" style such as BJJ, drills are understood to be critical.

Understanding this, I'm baffled when someone would suggest that we stop with drills and not take the next logical step, which is to incorporate increasing degrees of spontaneous and random resistance up to and including sparring. Taking this one step further, I think it's critical to get someone sparring ASAP. I agree with John Will 100% when he asserts that people don't learn something 100% BEFORE they do it; they only learn it AFTER they've done it. In other words, the details only follow context. Without context, in this case in the form of sparring, the details are largely unaccessible.

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

I will say once AGAIN for those that seem to not understand this for some reason:

I don't think sparring is bad. I think it is a good thing. I just don't think that certain styles or techniques should be discounted as completely ineffective because they are not practiced full force in sparring against a completely resistant partner.

 

[Andrew Green]

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

If those things are important to your training where appropriate safety equipment, use appropriate levels of contact and go for it. Safety goggles and throat guards aren't terribly hard to find.

 

[allenjp]

If those things are important to your training where appropriate safety equipment, use appropriate levels of contact and go for it. Safety goggles and throat guards aren't terribly hard to find.

Then how will I know how effective these techniques would have been on my opponent in a real fight, when I jab my sparring partner's goggles, and he laughs and says "you didn't really get my eyes"?

Kind of reminds me of when my kids play good guy-bad guy, and when one points his toy gun at the other one and says "bang! I got you" and the other one says "no, because I have a super invinceable forcefield".

What about bone breaking techniques? There is no guard to protect against those. Are we to assume they are useless in a real fight then?

We may have to agree to disagree here, which is fine, but IMHO lethal and debilitating techniques simply cannot be sparred with effectively. But that doesn't mean they are useless.

 

[Sukerkin]

I concur with your conclusion, allenjp. As has been said several times before in this thread alone, sparring is 'play' fighting - it has to be for safeties sake.

It is a useful adjunct to kata (or vice versa, depending on how you want to look at it) but it is not preparation for that time when it is for real.

I can't claim the large experience that some of our fellows here can (thank goodness) but I have had to make use of what I have trained 'out in the wilds' and that included breaking techniques that were drilled in kata and play-acted in sparring.

I keep banging on about it, for which I apologise to those who are fed up of hearing it but training without visualisation, without bunkai and without feeling is the only training that is a waste of time.