The rule sets of combat

[drop bear]

Some portion of toughness is developed in training. I think some portion may be inherent in a person's personality, too. But, yeah, building more toughness does give an edge in those situations.

It sounds like you're trying to argue something with me, which makes me think you've misunderstood something in my recent posts.

The bit we are worried about developing is developed in training. If we are looking at a system that enhances our abilities.

 

[drop bear]

Is there a good way to train them efficiently (the pokes, not gouges, since that seems to be the point of this test)?

And I'd argue this test isn't a good way to test the skill, because the other guy knows a poke is coming. It worked in that contest with the SEAL because he surprised the other guy.

Yes. Learn to hit properly rather than learn to eyegouge.

There are people out there trying to perfect the straight finger thinking they are creating an edge for themselves.

Might be wasting his time a little bit?

 

[Martial D]

First result when I looked up "Eye Poke Quit MMA".

This was the easiest research I have ever done.

And 0 of those guys were unable to continue, they just didn't because rules.

Look, you've missed the point entirely dude. Nobody said eye pokes or nut shots weren't annoying, they just aren't fight ending techniques. Pain compliance just doesn't work on someone full of adrenaline.

So the whole argument that MMA isn't an accurate measure of ability because it disallows things that don't stop people is downright silly. It's just something some TMA people that larp their training hold on to to preserve the dojo magic.

 

[skribs]

And 0 of those guys were unable to continue, they just didn't because rules.

What are you talking about? The initial reaction of most of those guys was a complete forfeiture of their fighting structure. Some of them dropped like they'd been KO'd, one guy called timeout when he could barely see, one guy walks away like the fight is over.

These aren't the "I've decided not to continue" or the ref calling the fight. The initial reaction by these fighters is "I don't know what's going on but I can't see".

Look, you've missed the point entirely dude. Nobody said eye pokes or nut shots weren't annoying, they just aren't fight ending techniques. Pain compliance just doesn't work on someone full of adrenaline.

So the whole argument that MMA isn't an accurate measure of ability because it disallows things that don't stop people is downright silly. It's just something some TMA people that larp their training hold on to to preserve the dojo magic.

An eye poke isn't just pain compliance. It's sensory deprivation.

Look at the pokes again.
1:10 into the video, his vision is clearly impaired and you can tell he's just holding his arms up out of habit, there's no way he's stopping a hook with those.
3:01 basically looks like a KO
4:58 another KO
5:30 he closes his eyes in the middle of the combo, 5:37 he walks away from the exchange
6:00 he walks away and shows his back, if the ref didn't stop it he would have been attacked from behind

Yeah, a lot of these fighters come back. But if the poker didn't have the ref stopping them, most of them would have been destroyed from behind by a punch to the back of the head or a sleeper hold.

 

[jobo]

And 0 of those guys were unable to continue, they just didn't because rules.

Look, you've missed the point entirely dude. Nobody said eye pokes or nut shots weren't annoying, they just aren't fight ending techniques. Pain compliance just doesn't work on someone full of adrenaline.

So the whole argument that MMA isn't an accurate measure of ability because it disallows things that don't stop people is downright silly. It's just something some TMA people that larp their training hold on to to preserve the dojo magic.

yes good points but, that's not generally how fight fights happen, knock outs are uncommon, but if you can do that you have no need for any other techniques, just knock them out and get on with your day. otherwise it's accumulating of damage leading to the fact that fights tend end one side is unwilling to continue or someone breaks it up. yes some people will fight on with significant damage, but most people take the fact they are pinned to the floor have in unprotected blows reign down on them as a sign they should give it up,, or the fact they have been kicked in the nuts and blinded in one eye as a fair indecation that to continue is folly that will likely result in then pinned to the ground having unprotected blows reign down othem in. if they do choose to continue then both of those has detracked from their fighting ability somewhat.

if the fight is broken up then the one with the least damage can consider themselves the winner, so if he has been eye poked and kicked in the nuts and you haven't, that is probably you.

I really wouldn't try and blind someone in a pointless fight about who turn it is on the pool table, etal it is, its really not proportionate, if iuts some one trying to cut me up with a knife or a bottle I would have no hesitation in poking them in one or prefably both eyes, I doubt they can stab me if they can't see me

 

[Martial D]

What are you talking about? The initial reaction of most of those guys was a complete forfeiture of their fighting structure. Some of them dropped like they'd been KO'd, one guy called timeout when he could barely see, one guy walks away like the fight is over.

These aren't the "I've decided not to continue" or the ref calling the fight. The initial reaction by these fighters is "I don't know what's going on but I can't see".



An eye poke isn't just pain compliance. It's sensory deprivation.

Look at the pokes again.
1:10 into the video, his vision is clearly impaired and you can tell he's just holding his arms up out of habit, there's no way he's stopping a hook with those.
3:01 basically looks like a KO
4:58 another KO
5:30 he closes his eyes in the middle of the combo, 5:37 he walks away from the exchange
6:00 he walks away and shows his back, if the ref didn't stop it he would have been attacked from behind

Yeah, a lot of these fighters come back. But if the poker didn't have the ref stopping them, most of them would have been destroyed from behind by a punch to the back of the head or a sleeper hold.

LOL

None of the guys in that video were unable to continue.

But even if I were to concede that eye pokes end fights(which I'm not), that still wouldn't really help your argument. If you can land an eyepoke, you can land a jab. Do you really think Joe beerbelly that can't even see his toes past his gi is going to land eyepokes with a greater proficiency than a trained fighter that knows how to land jabs on a resisting opponent? It really makes no difference.

 

[jobo]

LOL

None of the guys in that video were unable to continue.

But even if I were to concede that eye pokes end fights(which I'm not), that still wouldn't really help your argument. If you can land an eyepoke, you can land a jab. Do you really think Joe beerbelly that can't even see his toes past his gi is going to land eyepokes with a greater proficiency than a trained fighter that knows how to land jabs on a resisting opponent? It really makes no difference.

that doesn't seem a reasonable argument, " Joe beer belly" who can neither jab nor eye poke is likely to get beat ,if the does mma or any the other the other ma you look down on ! or no ma at all. it as you say it makes no difference at all

 

[skribs]

None of the guys in that video were unable to continue.

Half of them were. The other half got a time-out or the ref stopped the fight because they were unable to defend themselves. 5:37 is the best example of this - the fighter just turns around and walks away. In a real fight, with no ref, that's just begging to get punched in the back.

I agree there are a few points where incidental pokes get shrugged off. I would be willing to concede that point, but you're making the claim that it didn't end any of the fights, which is just flat out false. I don't know whether you're lying to me or lying to yourself, but someone literally covering his eyes, dropping his guard, and slowly walking away from me with his back turned, is about the easiest target I could have in a fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The bit we are worried about developing is developed in training. If we are looking at a system that enhances our abilities.

I mostly agree with that. My sense is that training can develop what we’re talking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. Learn to hit properly rather than learn to eyegouge.

There are people out there trying to perfect the straight finger thinking they are creating an edge for themselves.

Might be wasting his time a little bit?

That’s rather my thought in it, too. If you can jab well, you’re much more likely to be able to land an eye poke. I don’t really think there’s much benefit in any extensive training on the poke, itself. A bit of toying with it is probably informative, even if all you gain is an understanding of the limitations of training it specifically.

 

[Martial D]

that doesn't seem a reasonable argument, " Joe beer belly" who can neither jab nor eye poke is likely to get beat ,if the does mma or any the other the other ma you look down on ! or no ma at all. it as you say it makes no difference at all

I actually don't look down on TMA at all. All of the good stuff comes from TMA.

What I do have trouble taking totally seriously are people that make every excuse for why their stuff is untestable yet insist what they do is valid in the context of live situations.

 

[Martial D]

Half of them were. The other half got a time-out or the ref stopped the fight because they were unable to defend themselves. 5:37 is the best example of this - the fighter just turns around and walks away. In a real fight, with no ref, that's just begging to get punched in the back.

I agree there are a few points where incidental pokes get shrugged off. I would be willing to concede that point, but you're making the claim that it didn't end any of the fights, which is just flat out false. I don't know whether you're lying to me or lying to yourself, but someone literally covering his eyes, dropping his guard, and slowly walking away from me with his back turned, is about the easiest target I could have in a fight.

Sure, the matches ended.

At which point the totally conscious and physically undamaged fighter that just won by doctor stoppage walks under his own power back to the locker room with a sore eye.

 

[skribs]

Sure, the matches ended.

At which point the totally conscious and physically undamaged fighter that just won by doctor stoppage walks under his own power back to the locker room with a sore eye.

So you think that being blind in one eye, half-blind in the other, with no guard, with your back turned to the opponent, is not a severe disadvantage?

 

[Martial D]

So you think that being blind in one eye, half-blind in the other, with no guard, with your back turned to the opponent, is not a severe disadvantage?

Of course it is, but severe disadvantages are not under discussion. We are talking about ending fights. Reaching that point where one party is unable to continue fighting. Not disadvantaged. Not broken up by a ref, or deemed by a doctor unable to see well enough to safely continue. Not an unwillingness to continue in the face of a rules violation.

But stopped. Punches stop people. Kicks, knees, elbows.. SEVERE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA stops people.

Being choked unconscious stops people.

Eye pokes just blur your vision and make you angry.

 

[skribs]

But stopped. Punches stop people. Kicks, knees, elbows.. SEVERE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA stops people.

Being choked unconscious stops people.

And you don't think this is easier to do when your opponent has his back to you, attention off of you, eyes closed, guard down?

You don't think it's easier to punch, kick, or choke someone in this situation?

And I don't mean "easier" as in how 90 + 110 is easier than 147 + 164. I mean easier in how memorizing that X * 0 = 0 is easier than memorizing pi to 100 digits.

 

[Buka]

I think eye pokes, groin strikes and the term "self defense techniques" are the three most misunderstood things in the world of Martial Arts schools. Not in the world of Martial Arts, but in the world of Martial Art schools.

And....I can no longer recite pi to one hundred digits. But I can go to fifty even drunk. Memorized that back in college attempting to bed a pretty math major. It didn't work. Her and I are still friends, though.

 

[skribs]

I think eye pokes, groin strikes and the term "self defense techniques" are the three most misunderstood things in the world of Martial Arts schools. Not in the world of Martial Arts, but in the world of Martial Art schools.

Care to elaborate?

What do people think they mean, and why are they wrong?

 

[jobo]

I actually don't look down on TMA at all. All of the good stuff comes from TMA.

What I do have trouble taking totally seriously are people that make every excuse for why their stuff is untestable yet insist what they do is valid in the context of live situations.

I'm not sure that, that is where this discussion is at, but there are most certainly techniques that are outlawed from licenced fight because of the damage they can do. if your style contains one or several of these, you could make a valid point that your style may be a lot more effective live, than it would be in a ring. that of course doesn't account for the variable of if any particular individual could actually do it live or against a trained fighter if they were allowed to do it in a contest

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure that, that is where this discussion is at, but there are most certainly techniques that are outlawed from licenced fight because of the damage they can do. if your style contains one or several of these, you could make a valid point that your style may be a lot more effective live, than it would be in a ring. that of course doesn't account for the variable of if any particular individual could actually do it live or against a trained fighter if they were allowed to do it in a contest

I think that is kind of the assumption made with the rules of combat a little bit.

There is a lot of back of house that allows a person to land that decisive strike on another person.

Which is under developed if you are being out struck.

And that development is the most important set of rules.

 

[Martial D]

And you don't think this is easier to do when your opponent has his back to you, attention off of you, eyes closed, guard down?

You don't think it's easier to punch, kick, or choke someone in this situation?

And I don't mean "easier" as in how 90 + 110 is easier than 147 + 164. I mean easier in how memorizing that X * 0 = 0 is easier than memorizing pi to 100 digits.

Ok, since you insist on continuing to argue points I've not made, I'll let you and your strawman continue without me.