Combat proven martial arts. What are the top real world effective arts?

[MJS]

Personally, I have less faith in this approach. It is my opinion that different martial systems, if taught properly, have a very specific and underlying method for delivery of every technique. It isn't so much the technique itself, the specific movement or combination of movements, or the defensive action that matters so much as understanding and mastering the underlying method of delivery. Once you understand that underlying method, you can deliver any technique with devastation. If you only focus on the specific technique and movement and combination, then you are really looking a the system on a very superficial level.

Once you understand the underlying method, you will find that you do not need to cherry pick from various different arts. But it takes a very deliberate and focused study to make the breakthrough to be able to do this, and it takes an instructor who can bring you there. Not everyone out there is up to snuff.

Your suggestion raises a few very practical questions as well. You state that if there was something from budo taijutsu, or a gun disarm from krav maga, as examples, that you liked, then adapt that. Well, how long to you need to practice these systems in order to get those components that you specifically want? What if those schools do not exist in your area?

Personally, if I was running a school and someone showed up with the idea that he wanted me to teach him specific things about my art that he was going to just cherry pick and probably go on his way in short order, I'd show him to the door immediately. I have no interest in working with someone like that. With that kind of approach, he absolutely cannot learn what I have to offer, so I won't waste his time or mine.

I suggest one find a system that appeals to him, an instructor who is knowledgeable and capable, and study as deeply as he can. More answers will be found there, than by jumping from one thing to another like someone with ADHD.

While I am 100% behind the idea of crosstraining, I approach it slightly different. Myself, I dont jump from art to art, spending 2mos here, a year or two there, etc. I stick with it. Now, were someone to attend a seminar, yeah, I'd say it'd be fairly easy to 'cherry pick' a few things, drill the hell out of them, and add them to their toolbox. I've done this myself many times. Its pretty much impossible, IMO, to remember everything from a seminar, but you should be able to do that with a few things.

 

[MJS]

I'll take hard core sparring over not sparring hard at all as the superior litmus test for being better off in a "real fight" any day.

I'll agree with that! OTOH, it may start taking a toll on the body if its that hardcore each time but even med. contact is better, IMO, than nothing.

 

[Indie12]

"The Most Proven Combat Martial Art System, Is The One That Doesn't Get You Killed!"
-Unknown Author

 

[FriedRice]

If you are going 100%, how many times have you put him in the hospital? Aren't you concerned about killing him?

If you are not aiming to cripple your training partner (which no one should do) then you are not going 100%. You many be moving as fast as you can (which is good for pressure testing if you are experienced but awful for learning how something works), but there is no way you are hitting as hard as you can at the right targets without having the intention of causing serious injury. Unless of course you are talking about sports, which do not resemble how fights work in self-defense situations.

Have you ever sparred full contact before? It's not the same as hitting the bag or some pads. The other guy is moving and trying to not get hit. And he's countering and returning. You get tired real quick compared to pad work. You're also more stressed, scared, w/e especially when going up against someone who's scary. Going 100% while exhausted does not deliver the same power, precision, etc. as when your hitting foam at 100%. You seem to think that there's some kind of death touch or something or that someone will just stand still for you to hit them.

Your attempt to differentiate sports fighting and self defense situation is pretty absurd. Maybe you've never fought before.

 

[FriedRice]

Sparring is a tool that allows you to practice your techniques under one sort of pressure. It's not the same pressure as real violence. Especially predatory violence. Generally, in sparring you and your opponent work from agreed rule sets. You know there's going to be a "fight" and you have a chance to prepare for it -- sometimes to prepare for the particular opponent you will be facing. Sparring very easily becomes a game about "winning"; a fight for your life is all about survival. The experience is dramatically different.

C'mon dude, give me a break. My best friend, who I train with has been in over 50 street fights b/c he used to be a gang banger, drug dealer, etc. He fought with knives, vs. knifes, firefights where he expended over 50 rounds of .223 in one exchange. This is a hell of a lot for an urban firefight. He used to take all sorts of drugs, especially meth and I think PCP to just train hard in MA. He was crazy. I haven't been in as many streetfights as him, not even close, but our conclusion is...the average loudmouth idiot on the streets can't fight worth a crap. Toughguys come and go into our dojo all the time. With no training, they all suck and get all flustered when they get a simple jab to the face for that very first time. Marines, Army Ranger, w/e ....they all suck unless the had training.

So you think a boxer who trains 40 hours a week, full sparring, etc. for years and years....that don't really care about these anti-rape tactics nor self defense, w/e....can't handle himself in a street situation b/c he's training for the sport of boxing?

 

[FriedRice]

Even if you've fought in real life you have no idea how you'll react in a certain situation though. Every fight is unique. I've been in a couple over the years and it was different everytime. What came out was different (ranging from freeze response to verbal de-escalation to pre emptive strikes) each time. Thinking you'll be awesome in a fight based on hard sparring with fellow students at a gym can get you killed quick smart cause the bad guy doesn't know what your tapping means...

Dude, sell this to ladies who are scared of getting raped. I'll pass, thanks.

By your criteria then I'm a bully. So are my friends who train with me and are at the same level (Green belts). So is my instructor. Oh my other instructor that I had briefly qualifies too. We train the same against each other as we do with a white belt who just walked into the school. We expect less from them in terms of technique obviously but we attack with the same intensity. Note I said intensity not power or speed.

Intensity but not power nor speed? So you scream at them loudly as you slowly tap them I guess? You're definitely not this bully I was referring to.

That being said, his techs are at the top 10%, his power is at the top 5%, what about control? Where's your control? As Himura said, how many times have you had him sent to hospital if you're going 100%?

Obviously you've never sparred hard if you think 100% sparring is the same as hitting the bag/pads at 100%.

Uhh you've never been hurt doing BJJ? I've played around on the ground with a mate once or twice who does BJJ and trust me, it's a very very fine line between a submission and a break.

The both of you are noobs then. I've been training in BJJ for nearly 3 years now in a 100+ student dojo. We have over 6 black belts. The master is 5th dan and the #2 instructor is 3rd dan. I haven't broken nor dislocated anything. I'm working on my purple belt in BJJ and you're trying to tell me to take advice from you? You just said that you "play around on the ground" once or twice.

 

[K831]

C'mon dude, give me a break. My best friend, who I train with has been in over 50 street fights b/c he used to be a gang banger, drug dealer, etc. He fought with knives, vs. knifes, firefights where he expended over 50 rounds of .223 in one exchange. This is a hell of a lot for an urban firefight. He used to take all sorts of drugs, especially meth and I think PCP to just train hard in MA. He was crazy. I haven't been in as many streetfights as him, not even close, but our conclusion is...the average loudmouth idiot on the streets can't fight worth a crap. Toughguys come and go into our dojo all the time. With no training, they all suck and get all flustered when they get a simple jab to the face for that very first time. Marines, Army Ranger, w/e ....they all suck unless the had training.

So you think a boxer who trains 40 hours a week, full sparring, etc. for years and years....that don't really care about these anti-rape tactics nor self defense, w/e....can't handle himself in a street situation b/c he's training for the sport of boxing?

What are you putting in your fried rice, homie?

 

[FriedRice]

I'll agree with that! OTOH, it may start taking a toll on the body if its that hardcore each time but even med. contact is better, IMO, than nothing.

I train about 3 hours per day 3x a week. Only about 30-40 minutes of full sparring per day. Technically, we are supposed to go only 70% or so. Sometimes it's just light sparring (until someone gets hit harder than they think they should of, then it escalates). Then another 2 days of about 90 min/day on the bag only. This is for standup Muay Thai, which I'm currently working hard on for my next fight.

Maybe my stating "100%" is kind of misleading. The intensity is not the same in sparring as in a our fights. It starts out pretty tamed and we try to work different things in. Not looking for that KO all the time. Like if someone was in trouble or getting wobbly, the other guy would ease up and we reset. We aren't trying to kill each other.

But in BJJ, there's sparring in every class. 30-60 minutes and pretty much at 80-95%. That last 5% is saved for tournament intensity which certainly is noticeable as compared to average sparring.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Have you ever sparred full contact before? It's not the same as hitting the bag or some pads. .

Obviously.

The other guy is moving and trying to not get hit. And he's countering and returning.

If your "fight" lasts longer than 8 seconds, you are doing something wrong. If he is able to counter you then you did not properly set up your technique. Obviously he is moving and trying not to get hit, if you use tactics you can manuver him into a poor position.

You get tired real quick compared to pad work. You're also more stressed, scared, w/e especially when going up against someone who's scary. Going 100% while exhausted does not deliver the same power, precision, etc. as when your hitting foam at 100%.

Of course it is tiring when you ramp things up. I'm all for going faster and a little rougher at times. I'm just saying you cannot honestly go 100% with having someone injured. When things go faster and harder people cannot respond quickly enough when you do things right and they will get injured if they resist when your technique is applied properly.

You seem to think that there's some kind of death touch or something or that someone will just stand still for you to hit them.

That's a pretty odd assumption in your part. I'm not saying their is a death touch or even that one or two strikes are enough. I'm saying that when you hit people, they should have their balance effected and be damaged pretty badly if you strike them the right way in the right targets which can be set up if you practice tactics. Clearly people will try to block or evade strikes, that is why you use strikes to set up throws. If I punch towards someones face with the idea of using it as a way to get him to move his arms so I can put an arm bar on him, I am using tactics. You can't beat anyone with skill without have a strategy.

Your attempt to differentiate sports fighting and self defense situation is pretty absurd.

So you would fight for your life the same way you would fight in a cage or ring? That's insane.

Maybe you've never fought before.

Another ballzy and false assumption.

The both of you are noobs then .

That's a rather insulting and childish thing to say.

I haven't broken nor dislocated anything

Then you are not going "100%" because "100%" implies that that is how you would do it in a real fight where someone should be injured.

I'm working on my purple belt in BJJ and you're trying to tell me to take advice from you? You just said that you "play around on the ground" once or twice.

So basically you're not an expert? Are you advocating to intentionally do ground fighting in a self defense situation?

In sport fighting arts like boxing, MMA, full contact kickboxing, judo, and MT there are rules on how to win which shape the way people engage each other during a match. The rules shape the strategy. If you go 100% during sparring and don't injure someone then you are using a sport based mindset and not a self defense mindset which is fine if you are a sportsman and not training for self-defense at that moment.

Becareful how you word things to people when you respond to them.

 

[jks9199]

C'mon dude, give me a break. My best friend, who I train with has been in over 50 street fights b/c he used to be a gang banger, drug dealer, etc. He fought with knives, vs. knifes, firefights where he expended over 50 rounds of .223 in one exchange. This is a hell of a lot for an urban firefight. He used to take all sorts of drugs, especially meth and I think PCP to just train hard in MA. He was crazy. I haven't been in as many streetfights as him, not even close, but our conclusion is...the average loudmouth idiot on the streets can't fight worth a crap. Toughguys come and go into our dojo all the time. With no training, they all suck and get all flustered when they get a simple jab to the face for that very first time. Marines, Army Ranger, w/e ....they all suck unless the had training.

So you think a boxer who trains 40 hours a week, full sparring, etc. for years and years....that don't really care about these anti-rape tactics nor self defense, w/e....can't handle himself in a street situation b/c he's training for the sport of boxing?

Interestingly enough, that's not at all what I said. What I said was that the experience of true violence, especially predatory violence, is dramatically different than any dojo or ring fight.

Nor did I say that sparring has no place in training. Experience under various forms of pressure is the best way to prepare yourself for other pressure; it's how we can rein in our reaction to pressure. But I've seen people with extensive ring experience freeze the first time someone really tried to hurt 'em. I've seen them freeze when placed into a well constructed and properly conducted scenario training environment. Any training has inherent flaws; sparring's flaws include what I listed.

 

[James Kovacich]

I have trained in US Army Combatives, BJJ, Commando Krav Maga, and the Bujinkan. I am looking for a combat proven martial arts for winning an altercation. I am considering a move away from the Bujinkan system for the same reason that I moved away from Commando Krav Maga... the fact that its not proven to be real.

What styles have evolved through what worked in combat? I dont like competition based arts and want one that will end the fight with no rules.

I've said it many times over and I'm finding myself saying it even more as time goes by that if I had to choose a single art to cover "all my needs in one package" I'd choose Eskrima. Given there are many differant flavors as is with most arts but chosen wisely, Eskrima is a very good choice indeed.

 

[K831]

I've said it many times over and I'm finding myself saying it even more as time goes by that if I had to choose a single art to cover "all my needs in one package" I'd choose Eskrima. Given there are many differant flavors as is with most arts but chosen wisely, Eskrima is a very good choice indeed.

The longer I study Eskrima the more eclectic I realize it is. Pretty good empty hand, weapons, contact manipulation, and depending on lineage/ flavor, it has enough grappling for dirty SD.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Have you ever sparred full contact before? It's not the same as hitting the bag or some pads. The other guy is moving and trying to not get hit. And he's countering and returning. You get tired real quick compared to pad work. You're also more stressed, scared, w/e especially when going up against someone who's scary. Going 100% while exhausted does not deliver the same power, precision, etc. as when your hitting foam at 100%. You seem to think that there's some kind of death touch or something or that someone will just stand still for you to hit them.

Your attempt to differentiate sports fighting and self defense situation is pretty absurd. Maybe you've never fought before.

Your inability to differentiate sports fighing and SD astounds me. Maybe you've spent too much time with your friend on PCP or Meth getting shot at.

C'mon dude, give me a break. My best friend, who I train with has been in over 50 street fights b/c he used to be a gang banger, drug dealer, etc. He fought with knives, vs. knifes, firefights where he expended over 50 rounds of .223 in one exchange. This is a hell of a lot for an urban firefight. He used to take all sorts of drugs, especially meth and I think PCP to just train hard in MA. He was crazy. I haven't been in as many streetfights as him, not even close, but our conclusion is...the average loudmouth idiot on the streets can't fight worth a crap. Toughguys come and go into our dojo all the time. With no training, they all suck and get all flustered when they get a simple jab to the face for that very first time. Marines, Army Ranger, w/e ....they all suck unless the had training.

And you think this is something to be proud of? I'd suggest you stop, think before you type and realise where it is that you are posting. A serious forum for serious dedicated martial artists with experience far far far far superior to yours. What makes you think you are even remotely qualified to reach a joint conclusion with a gang banger and dealer about the current climate of street violence as a whole when the people you are talking down to are LEO's or military? Aside from your training in the 3 or so arts mentioned on your profile, what are your qualifications? What's your background? It's easy to talk big under the guise of Internet annonimity but what's the reality here?

Marines, Army Ranges w/e all suck? I'd loooove to see you go up against one on a mat, forget the street. Now I'm not part of any of those groups myself but broadly saying army combatives suck is a little ridiculous. Marines don't strictly need to train in H2H combat, they have GUNS! Plus a range of other tools... H2H is a back up from what I understand.

Dude, sell this to ladies who are scared of getting raped. I'll pass, thanks.

Your attitude worries me

Intensity but not power nor speed? So you scream at them loudly as you slowly tap them I guess? You're definitely not this bully I was referring to.

See above

Obviously you've never sparred hard if you think 100% sparring is the same as hitting the bag/pads at 100%.

I love how you deem it appropriate to waltz in and start making assumptions about people you've never met, trained with or had a decent conversation with. Make a lot of friends do you?

The both of you are noobs then. I've been training in BJJ for nearly 3 years now in a 100+ student dojo. We have over 6 black belts. The master is 5th dan and the #2 instructor is 3rd dan. I haven't broken nor dislocated anything. I'm working on my purple belt in BJJ and you're trying to tell me to take advice from you? You just said that you "play around on the ground" once or twice.

Again, wow your ignorance is astounding! For the record though, I'm a noob to BJJ, I'll be the first person to admit that. He on the other hand has been training for about 10 years (a helluva lot longer than getting a Purple Belt) and has competed in international tournaments for under 18's and now under 21's consistently acheiving high results. I said play around because that's how it is for me. I have no chance to think before he moves in for a submission when on the ground. Stand up is a different ball game but the ground is his world. If you've been training for 3 years and can't realise that BJJ can be devastating to joints/limbs etc then you're not training right. Oh and just to be clear, at no point did I tell you to take advice from me about BJJ, I just suggested you had a long way to go when it comes to understanding SD as it happens in real, sober, non drug induced life.

To everyone else who read that,

Well that was fun... Hope I didn't come off as too emotional, tried to keep it level headed but I had to go back and restart a few times because all my responses just kept saying "you're a tool" What's the ettiquette on that around these parts anyway?

 

[mook jong man]

Your inability to differentiate sports fighing and SD astounds me. Maybe you've spent too much time with your friend on PCP or Meth getting shot at.



And you think this is something to be proud of? I'd suggest you stop, think before you type and realise where it is that you are posting. A serious forum for serious dedicated martial artists with experience far far far far superior to yours. What makes you think you are even remotely qualified to reach a joint conclusion with a gang banger and dealer about the current climate of street violence as a whole when the people you are talking down to are LEO's or military? Aside from your training in the 3 or so arts mentioned on your profile, what are your qualifications? What's your background? It's easy to talk big under the guise of Internet annonimity but what's the reality here?

Marines, Army Ranges w/e all suck? I'd loooove to see you go up against one on a mat, forget the street. Now I'm not part of any of those groups myself but broadly saying army combatives suck is a little ridiculous. Marines don't strictly need to train in H2H combat, they have GUNS! Plus a range of other tools... H2H is a back up from what I understand.



Your attitude worries me



See above



I love how you deem it appropriate to waltz in and start making assumptions about people you've never met, trained with or had a decent conversation with. Make a lot of friends do you?



Again, wow your ignorance is astounding! For the record though, I'm a noob to BJJ, I'll be the first person to admit that. He on the other hand has been training for about 10 years (a helluva lot longer than getting a Purple Belt) and has competed in international tournaments for under 18's and now under 21's consistently acheiving high results. I said play around because that's how it is for me. I have no chance to think before he moves in for a submission when on the ground. Stand up is a different ball game but the ground is his world. If you've been training for 3 years and can't realise that BJJ can be devastating to joints/limbs etc then you're not training right. Oh and just to be clear, at no point did I tell you to take advice from me about BJJ, I just suggested you had a long way to go when it comes to understanding SD as it happens in real, sober, non drug induced life.

To everyone else who read that,

Well that was fun... Hope I didn't come off as too emotional, tried to keep it level headed but I had to go back and restart a few times because all my responses just kept saying "you're a tool" What's the ettiquette on that around these parts anyway?

And quite fixated on rape it would seem.

 

[Supra Vijai]

And quite fixated on rape it would seem.

indeed...

 

[MJS]

I train about 3 hours per day 3x a week. Only about 30-40 minutes of full sparring per day. Technically, we are supposed to go only 70% or so. Sometimes it's just light sparring (until someone gets hit harder than they think they should of, then it escalates). Then another 2 days of about 90 min/day on the bag only. This is for standup Muay Thai, which I'm currently working hard on for my next fight.

Maybe my stating "100%" is kind of misleading. The intensity is not the same in sparring as in a our fights. It starts out pretty tamed and we try to work different things in. Not looking for that KO all the time. Like if someone was in trouble or getting wobbly, the other guy would ease up and we reset. We aren't trying to kill each other.

Yes, I see what you're saying. When I spar, I gear the intensity to whatever it is that I'm working on for that session. When I'm working something specific, I'll vary the intensity. If I'm just going out to do whatever, then I may go a bit harder. Again, alot depends on a) what, if anything I'm working on and b) how I'm feeling that day.

But in BJJ, there's sparring in every class. 30-60 minutes and pretty much at 80-95%. That last 5% is saved for tournament intensity which certainly is noticeable as compared to average sparring.

But, the sparring done while rolling isn't the same as the stand up, but I dont think I have to tell you that. But, even when I grapple, I gear it to what I'm looking to do.

But, in any case, I think we're all (myself included) getting a bit off topic. If we want to talk about sparring, lets start a new thread.

 

[fangjian]

Oh yeah?!! Well tell me what you're gonna do against these guys!!





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5GAb5MQapo

 

[Aiki Lee]

Oh dear me...

 

[FriedRice]

Obviously.

I questioned this based on your statement about how come I don't kill my sparring partners when I spar against them at 100%.

If your "fight" lasts longer than 8 seconds, you are doing something wrong. If he is able to counter you then you did not properly set up your technique. Obviously he is moving and trying not to get hit, if you use tactics you can manuver him into a poor position.

Sell this to women who are scared to get raped in a dark parking lot, I'll pass thanks.

Of course it is tiring when you ramp things up. I'm all for going faster and a little rougher at times. I'm just saying you cannot honestly go 100% with having someone injured. When things go faster and harder people cannot respond quickly enough when you do things right and they will get injured if they resist when your technique is applied properly.

We are wearing at least 12oz gloves and headgear. We don't use anti-rape techniques while sparring.

That's a pretty odd assumption in your part. I'm not saying their is a death touch or even that one or two strikes are enough. I'm saying that when you hit people, they should have their balance effected and be damaged pretty badly if you strike them the right way in the right targets which can be set up if you practice tactics.

Which is why I question whether you've fought at at all. You seem to think that people stand still for you to hit them in a real fight.

Clearly people will try to block or evade strikes, that is why you use strikes to set up throws. If I punch towards someones face with the idea of using it as a way to get him to move his arms so I can put an arm bar on him, I am using tactics. You can't beat anyone with skill without have a strategy.

Guess you only spar with noobs and girls? I'm sparring against people my level. Why is this so difficult to understand that during hard sparring and real fights, the other guy is looking to hurt me just the same. You've never fought before that's why you think fights shouldn't last more than "8 seconds".

So you would fight for your life the same way you would fight in a cage or ring? That's insane.

There's no way to know whether a street fight is just going to be a couple of punches that gets broken up or a guaranteed, fight to the death. Do people really fight to the death outside of chopsocky movies? Are you going to rip someone's eyeballs out the first chance you get in any situation? This is absurd.

Then you are not going "100%" because "100%" implies that that is how you would do it in a real fight where someone should be injured.

Wrong, I'm throwing punches and kicks at 100% power but it doesn't mean the other guy is going to stand still and take it all.

I'm working on my purple belt in BJJ and you're trying to tell me to take advice from you? You just said that you "play around on the ground" once or twice.

So basically you're not an expert? Are you advocating to intentionally do ground fighting in a self defense situation?

You don't seem to know what an expert is. And show me where I advocated going to the ground intentionally all the time?

In sport fighting arts like boxing, MMA, full contact kickboxing, judo, and MT there are rules on how to win which shape the way people engage each other during a match. The rules shape the strategy. If you go 100% during sparring and don't injure someone then you are using a sport based mindset and not a self defense mindset which is fine if you are a sportsman and not training for self-defense at that moment.

Again, go sell this to scared women who are worried about getting raped in a dark alley. You must think a MMA fighter can't target someone's throat nor kick them in the nuts b/c it's so difficult.

 

[FriedRice]

Interestingly enough, that's not at all what I said. What I said was that the experience of true violence, especially predatory violence, is dramatically different than any dojo or ring fight.

Yea, the violence in the ring is a lot worse b/c you're fighting against someone who's equally trained vs. some clown in the streets. How many times have you used your death touches in the streets? Usually it's just yelling or 1 or 2 punches. Predatory violence? No dudes ever tried to rape me before, you?

Nor did I say that sparring has no place in training. Experience under various forms of pressure is the best way to prepare yourself for other pressure; it's how we can rein in our reaction to pressure. But I've seen people with extensive ring experience freeze the first time someone really tried to hurt 'em. I've seen them freeze when placed into a well constructed and properly conducted scenario training environment. Any training has inherent flaws; sparring's flaws include what I listed.

I just gave you the example of my best friend who's had over 50 street fights and numerous tournament fights. He has a whole room for his trophies. He doesn't freeze in a streetfight and neither do I. So do our experiences negates yours?

You make it sound like every situation is a life or death one. I say, none of us knows squat as to what can happen. That's why I chose to spar often and fight in tournaments. How does building up my strength, power, endurance, agility, precision, experience, etc... not help me more than fake fighting using death touches to the throat and pretend testicle strikes? It's obvious that people are no longer buying this which is why they're flocking to MMA.