Combat proven martial arts. What are the top real world effective arts?

[Flying Crane]

Your best bet in my opinion is to study a variety of combat orientated arts and take what you like best from them, and make it your own.

...

Was there something you liked from Budo Taijutsu that stood out to you? A particular variation of a gun disarm in Krav Maga? You get the point.

Personally, I have less faith in this approach. It is my opinion that different martial systems, if taught properly, have a very specific and underlying method for delivery of every technique. It isn't so much the technique itself, the specific movement or combination of movements, or the defensive action that matters so much as understanding and mastering the underlying method of delivery. Once you understand that underlying method, you can deliver any technique with devastation. If you only focus on the specific technique and movement and combination, then you are really looking a the system on a very superficial level.

Once you understand the underlying method, you will find that you do not need to cherry pick from various different arts. But it takes a very deliberate and focused study to make the breakthrough to be able to do this, and it takes an instructor who can bring you there. Not everyone out there is up to snuff.

Your suggestion raises a few very practical questions as well. You state that if there was something from budo taijutsu, or a gun disarm from krav maga, as examples, that you liked, then adapt that. Well, how long to you need to practice these systems in order to get those components that you specifically want? What if those schools do not exist in your area?

Personally, if I was running a school and someone showed up with the idea that he wanted me to teach him specific things about my art that he was going to just cherry pick and probably go on his way in short order, I'd show him to the door immediately. I have no interest in working with someone like that. With that kind of approach, he absolutely cannot learn what I have to offer, so I won't waste his time or mine.

I suggest one find a system that appeals to him, an instructor who is knowledgeable and capable, and study as deeply as he can. More answers will be found there, than by jumping from one thing to another like someone with ADHD.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Some times.... the internet allows for misconmunication and or a perception that does not match reality.

Flying Crane, Mike is a long time IRT practitioner and not a person who jumps from one style to another. He is a very hard working and dedicated martial practitioner who is very skilled. In IRT we have a delivery system that allows for a practitoner once they understand the principles and concepts that we use to interact with other martial practitioners and hopefully pick up on what they do and incorporate what works for them personally. (or at least an understanding of them that can allow for good defensive strategy) We focus in the following areas:

Weapons
Kicking
Hand Strikes
Trapping Hands and Joint Manipulation
Grappling

It is a large curriculum but.... once someone gets the feel for things it allows for a lot of exploration within the principles and concepts that we use! So an IRT practitioner who has trained for say around three or four or more years can go to a seminar or work out with another practitoiner from a different style and see what they are doing and incorporate it within the principles and concepts that we use. I think if you look at almost all martial systems they do the same. That is if they are still growing......

Hope that clears things up.....

 

[FriedRice]

and 20 years down the track you end up with chronic injuries and Parkinson's disease..... nice.

Everybody's going to die of something. Even wusses. But that's why they make headgear. And not talking about having to go pro. Just that at some point, it's time to fight for real and not just tap and dance around. The strongest guy in our Muay Thai class has one of the best techniques, kills the pads/bags, 3+ years of experience and strong as an ox...but he's scared to spar. He gets all disoriented and quits training.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Everybody's going to die of something. Even wusses. But that's why they make headgear. And not talking about having to go pro. Just that at some point, it's time to fight for real and not just tap and dance around. The strongest guy in our Muay Thai class has one of the best techniques, kills the pads/bags, 3+ years of experience and strong as an ox...but he's scared to spar. He gets all disoriented and quits training.

Hmm so not wanting to get into fights makes you a wuss? Put me down in that column then! The guy who gets scared to spar wouldn't be a wuss in my books either, just someone who needs to work on controlling his adrenaline and train his techs under controlled chaos. A lot of people do that, a very close friend of mine who trains with me (also about 3 and a half years experience) gets flustered when put under pressure suddenly but it's something she's working on she gets better each time we stress test/pressure test stuff from class. Training for that can and IMO should be under controlled conditions though and not necessarily limited to getting to a fight. As for the comment that at some point it's time to fight for real and not just tap and dance around, not sure what style you train in (or rather how your particular school trains!) but let me assure you even when training with strict control what we do is nothing close to dancing or tapping. Sometimes our instructor makes it look it like he's dancing though the way he flows between moves...

Also I may be reading this completely wrong but that logic to me seems to be like saying when doing firearms training, to become a truly good marksman, you need to get off the range and start shooting people....

 

[Supra Vijai]

Mike is a long time IRT practitioner and not a person who jumps from one style to another. He is a very hard working and dedicated martial practitioner who is very skilled. In IRT we have a delivery system that allows for a practitoner once they understand the principles and concepts that we use to interact with other martial practitioners and hopefully pick up on what they do and incorporate what works for them personally. (or at least an understanding of them that can allow for good defensive strategy) We focus in the following areas:

Weapons
Kicking
Hand Strikes
Trapping Hands and Joint Manipulation
Grappling

It is a large curriculum but.... once someone gets the feel for things it allows for a lot of exploration within the principles and concepts that we use! So an IRT practitioner who has trained for say around three or four or more years can go to a seminar or work out with another practitoiner from a different style and see what they are doing and incorporate it within the principles and concepts that we use. I think if you look at almost all martial systems they do the same. That is if they are still growing......

Hey Brian,

I've removed a couple of the bold formatting points you made and bolded a few bits of my own to make things a bit easier. Hope you don't mind! With that said, in your post you repeatedly say that "once someone gets the feel for things" and "three or four or more years" of experience...

The point here is that the OP is the one I think being referred to as someone with ADHD jumping between the arts (not Mike) as he has very limited experience in the systems he mentions (a few months at most in each if I'm not mistaken). By his own admission during his short stay at the Bujinkan Kip has already approached his instructors about training with another instructor. Certainly nothing long enough that would suggest he has a solid understanding of the basics of any of them and ergo not in a position to be able to cherry pick techs from different arts with any real efficiency or effectiveness. I mean I may just be a slow learner but I've been training for about 3 and a half years and I wouldn't say I have enough of an understanding of the art side of things to be able to pick and choose what I want to learn. Even the absolute basics still carry lessons within them that will take me years more to uncover let alone master.

Just my take on things, no disrespect intended to either yourself or Flying Crane for jumping into this exchange!

 

[mook jong man]

Everybody's going to die of something. Even wusses. But that's why they make headgear. And not talking about having to go pro. Just that at some point, it's time to fight for real and not just tap and dance around. The strongest guy in our Muay Thai class has one of the best techniques, kills the pads/bags, 3+ years of experience and strong as an ox...but he's scared to spar. He gets all disoriented and quits training.

That's true everbody is going to die of something , but that doesn't mean we have to hasten the process do we?

Even with head gear on , the cumulative aspect of repeated trauma to the head will in the long term cause damage , this is only one sparring or reflex training methodology , there are many other ways that don't involve taking blows to the head , every now and then is ok but it is not something that should make up the bulk of the training.

A martial art should be about enhancing your health , not about tearing it down , and something that can and should be practiced well into your twighlight years.
Not only practiced by those segments of the population that are young , buff and fit.

As for your example of the strongest guy in your class that is scared to spar as you put it , he is probably a classic example of someone who was dropped into the deep end too early and likely used as a punching bag by a senior student and has never forgotten it.
If he went through a gradual progression leading up to the point of absorbing hard contact , then he probably wouldn't be as fearful as he seems to be.

 

[fangjian]

Even with head gear on , the cumulative aspect of repeated trauma to the head will in the long term cause damage , this is only one sparring or reflex training methodology , there are many other ways that don't involve taking blows to the head , every now and then is ok but it is not something that should make up the bulk of the training.

A martial art should be about enhancing your health , not about tearing it down , and something that can and should be practiced well into your twighlight years.
Not only practiced by those segments of the population that are young , buff and fit.

This is very important. I use to like training hard, sparring hard, and of course I would like my students too as well. I use to like the idea of training people for MMA competition and wanted to bring Chinese and Filipino boxing back on the map.

However, evidence is evidence. I will have no part in the eventual brain damage of my students.

We still spar. Mostly medium contact though. Full contact sparring, even once per month, is dangerous and unnecessary.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Everybody's going to die of something. Even wusses. But that's why they make headgear. And not talking about having to go pro. Just that at some point, it's time to fight for real and not just tap and dance around. The strongest guy in our Muay Thai class has one of the best techniques, kills the pads/bags, 3+ years of experience and strong as an ox...but he's scared to spar. He gets all disoriented and quits training.

Headgear does not address the issue of the brain taking impact as it moves about inside the skull. Head gear will only absorb but so much of the blow. Headgear also does not address the neck either.

If that's what you're into, great. But don't confuse good common sense for 'wusses.' As MJM said, once in a while is okay, but on a repeated basis over a prolonged period of time, the detriments outweigh any benefits.

Also, don't confuse hard core sparring with "fighting for real." It isn't. I know guys who trained very hard core and found that out the hard way.

Daniel

 

[clfsean]

Put a cantaloupe in a piece of head gear & smack it good & hard. Check the inside after 2 or 3 good shots.

You should get the picture. It's the same thing with the human head.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Brian,

I've removed a couple of the bold formatting points you made and bolded a few bits of my own to make things a bit easier. Hope you don't mind! With that said, in your post you repeatedly say that "once someone gets the feel for things" and "three or four or more years" of experience...

The point here is that the OP is the one I think being referred to as someone with ADHD jumping between the arts (not Mike) as he has very limited experience in the systems he mentions (a few months at most in each if I'm not mistaken). By his own admission during his short stay at the Bujinkan Kip has already approached his instructors about training with another instructor. Certainly nothing long enough that would suggest he has a solid understanding of the basics of any of them and ergo not in a position to be able to cherry pick techs from different arts with any real efficiency or effectiveness. I mean I may just be a slow learner but I've been training for about 3 and a half years and I wouldn't say I have enough of an understanding of the art side of things to be able to pick and choose what I want to learn. Even the absolute basics still carry lessons within them that will take me years more to uncover let alone master.

Just my take on things, no disrespect intended to either yourself or Flying Crane for jumping into this exchange!

Thanks between the two of us I am sure we cleared it up!

 

[FriedRice]

Also I may be reading this completely wrong but that logic to me seems to be like saying when doing firearms training, to become a truly good marksman, you need to get off the range and start shooting people....

This is silly to compare hand to hand combat with guns. And marksmanship can be measured through shooting targets w/o needing to engage in an actual firefight. Bad analogy on your part.

If you've never fought before nor even sparred hard, then you really don't know how you'll react. You'll probably freak out in your first ever real life situation. What do you think boxers do at a boxing gym. They don't stay on the heavy bag all day. At some point, it's time to man up.

 

[Flying Crane]

Some times.... the internet allows for misconmunication and or a perception that does not match reality.

yes, I think so. It did come across as a recommendation to jump around and cherry pick from the beginning. When a beginner is asking what is a good art to study, I think such a recommendation is inappropriate, where an experienced practitioner might get some value from cross training.

Flying Crane, Mike is a long time IRT practitioner and not a person who jumps from one style to another. He is a very hard working and dedicated martial practitioner who is very skilled. In IRT we have a delivery system that allows for a practitoner once they understand the principles and concepts that we use to interact with other martial practitioners and hopefully pick up on what they do and incorporate what works for them personally. (or at least an understanding of them that can allow for good defensive strategy) We focus in the following areas:

Weapons
Kicking
Hand Strikes
Trapping Hands and Joint Manipulation
Grappling

It is a large curriculum but.... once someone gets the feel for things it allows for a lot of exploration within the principles and concepts that we use! So an IRT practitioner who has trained for say around three or four or more years can go to a seminar or work out with another practitoiner from a different style and see what they are doing and incorporate it within the principles and concepts that we use. I think if you look at almost all martial systems they do the same. That is if they are still growing......

Hope that clears things up.....

Thanks for the clarification, and yes I was not directing the ADHD comment at Mike or your method, rather i was using it analogously.

I do stand by my earlier comments overall, in that I feel one's best chance at getting good answers is a deep study of one system, with a good instructor.

I also recognize that an experienced person can get some benefit from cross training and taking elements from different systems. However, I also believe that many people put more stock in that approach than perhaps is appropriate, and perhaps many people believe THEY have the experience to effectively do it, when most of them really do not. People tend to not be honest with themselves about such things.

I also stand by my comment that if someone came to me asking to learn elements to cherry pick from my art, with a short timer's attitude, I would not comply. Even with an experienced person, I do not believe he would get anything of value from the experience.

 

[FriedRice]

A martial art should be about enhancing your health , not about tearing it down , and something that can and should be practiced well into your twighlight years.
Not only practiced by those segments of the population that are young , buff and fit.

That's just your take on what MA should be about. MA is merely a tool to some. Many just want to use MA to fight. You can even train in MA to become a better rapist if you want.

As for your example of the strongest guy in your class that is scared to spar as you put it , he is probably a classic example of someone who was dropped into the deep end too early and likely used as a punching bag by a senior student and has never forgotten it.

Absolutely not. He's a very nice guy but he's the one who's the bully when doing constructive sparring....where we throw a punch and the partner knows exactly what's coming to block...and back & forth to train a technique. This guy hits hard as hell for no good reason that most people are scared to be his partner. The instructors are constantly telling him to stop hitting people so hard. But in real sparring, he can't take it b/c it's not choreographed.

If he went through a gradual progression leading up to the point of absorbing hard contact , then he probably wouldn't be as fearful as he seems to be.

Man, he's been there over 3 years and trains regularly. His techniques are at the top 10%. His power is probably in the top 5%. Every time I spar against him, I have to go 100% b/c everything that he's throwing are bombs. Just slowass bombs, which is 1 of his problems.

 

[FriedRice]

Also, don't confuse hard core sparring with "fighting for real." It isn't. I know guys who trained very hard core and found that out the hard way.

Daniel

I'll take hard core sparring over not sparring hard at all as the superior litmus test for being better off in a "real fight" any day.

 

[FriedRice]

Headgear does not address the issue of the brain taking impact as it moves about inside the skull. Head gear will only absorb but so much of the blow. Headgear also does not address the neck either.

If that's what you're into, great. But don't confuse good common sense for 'wusses.' As MJM said, once in a while is okay, but on a repeated basis over a prolonged period of time, the detriments outweigh any benefits.
Daniel

This is a great testament as to why BJJ is so awesome compared to other MA's. You can train 90-100% everyday and even spar at 80-95% intensity everyday with very low chances of getting hurt and especially in the long term.

Even JJJ can't compare b/c in JJJ, sparring 80-95% everyday would destroy your wrists, fingers, etc. from all the small joint manipulations & holds while damaging your body & limbs from all the throws.

No argument for Muay Thai being the safest, just that it's a risk you take for joining a fighting gym.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'll take hard core sparring over not sparring hard at all as the superior litmus test for being better off in a "real fight" any day.

You do realize that nobody has advocated not sparring hard at all?

Daniel

 

[Indie12]

H2H isn't necessarily martial arts. Any goon can get into a fight with his fists. Martial arts have to have skills organized from principles that can be passed on.

True! Although Martial Arts can be H2H. Martial Arts does include H2H along with other variables. Same goes with Defensive Tactics, it's based on Martial Arts principles, but have different approches.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Every time I spar against him, I have to go 100% b/c everything that he's throwing are bombs. Just slowass bombs, which is 1 of his problems.

If you are going 100%, how many times have you put him in the hospital? Aren't you concerned about killing him?

If you are not aiming to cripple your training partner (which no one should do) then you are not going 100%. You many be moving as fast as you can (which is good for pressure testing if you are experienced but awful for learning how something works), but there is no way you are hitting as hard as you can at the right targets without having the intention of causing serious injury. Unless of course you are talking about sports, which do not resemble how fights work in self-defense situations.

 

[jks9199]

This is silly to compare hand to hand combat with guns. And marksmanship can be measured through shooting targets w/o needing to engage in an actual firefight. Bad analogy on your part.

If you've never fought before nor even sparred hard, then you really don't know how you'll react. You'll probably freak out in your first ever real life situation. What do you think boxers do at a boxing gym. They don't stay on the heavy bag all day. At some point, it's time to man up.

Range marksmanship and actual gunfighting are often worlds apart.

As a very loose guide -- typically, we expect that a police officer will not shoot better than about 60% of their best range performance in a real gunfight. And often much worse.

Sparring and real violence are also worlds apart. There's a reason that most effective police DT systems concentrate on simple, direct movements.

Sparring is a tool that allows you to practice your techniques under one sort of pressure. It's not the same pressure as real violence. Especially predatory violence. Generally, in sparring you and your opponent work from agreed rule sets. You know there's going to be a "fight" and you have a chance to prepare for it -- sometimes to prepare for the particular opponent you will be facing. Sparring very easily becomes a game about "winning"; a fight for your life is all about survival. The experience is dramatically different.

 

[Supra Vijai]

This is silly to compare hand to hand combat with guns. And marksmanship can be measured through shooting targets w/o needing to engage in an actual firefight. Bad analogy on your part.

If you've never fought before nor even sparred hard, then you really don't know how you'll react. You'll probably freak out in your first ever real life situation. What do you think boxers do at a boxing gym. They don't stay on the heavy bag all day. At some point, it's time to man up.

Granted on it's own it's a bad analogy but I think it works well for the pressure test you are talking about. You can stay on the range and shoot clay pigeons under competition conditions and be under a hell of a lot of pressure if any of the guys I've spoken to are to be believed. You don't need to get into a war and learn to shoot while taking cross fire.

Even if you've fought in real life you have no idea how you'll react in a certain situation though. Every fight is unique. I've been in a couple over the years and it was different everytime. What came out was different (ranging from freeze response to verbal de-escalation to pre emptive strikes) each time. Thinking you'll be awesome in a fight based on hard sparring with fellow students at a gym can get you killed quick smart cause the bad guy doesn't know what your tapping means...

That's just your take on what MA should be about. MA is merely a tool to some. Many just want to use MA to fight. You can even train in MA to become a better rapist if you want.

As for the first part of that sentence, a lot of people share that view of MA I'd say. As for the second... seriously?

He's a very nice guy but he's the one who's the bully when doing constructive sparring....where we throw a punch and the partner knows exactly what's coming to block...and back & forth to train a technique. This guy hits hard as hell for no good reason that most people are scared to be his partner. The instructors are constantly telling him to stop hitting people so hard. But in real sparring, he can't take it b/c it's not choreographed.

Man, he's been there over 3 years and trains regularly. His techniques are at the top 10%. His power is probably in the top 5%. Every time I spar against him, I have to go 100% b/c everything that he's throwing are bombs. Just slowass bombs, which is 1 of his problems.

By your criteria then I'm a bully. So are my friends who train with me and are at the same level (Green belts). So is my instructor. Oh my other instructor that I had briefly qualifies too. We train the same against each other as we do with a white belt who just walked into the school. We expect less from them in terms of technique obviously but we attack with the same intensity. Note I said intensity not power or speed. My first class had me scared of one of the seniors because of how powerful his blocks were. Few more classes though and that fear just became respect. This guy was insane with what he could do. In terms of not coping with free sparring, again I refer to my friend from the previous example. Give her a technique and time to break it down and practice and she's brilliant. Throw her into chaos and she gets flustered and something else comes out. Work in progress. Same as the rest of us. It's why we're students and not teachers.

That being said, his techs are at the top 10%, his power is at the top 5%, what about control? Where's your control? As Himura said, how many times have you had him sent to hospital if you're going 100%?

This is a great testament as to why BJJ is so awesome compared to other MA's. You can train 90-100% everyday and even spar at 80-95% intensity everyday with very low chances of getting hurt and especially in the long term.

Even JJJ can't compare b/c in JJJ, sparring 80-95% everyday would destroy your wrists, fingers, etc. from all the small joint manipulations & holds while damaging your body & limbs from all the throws.

No argument for Muay Thai being the safest, just that it's a risk you take for joining a fighting gym.

Uhh you've never been hurt doing BJJ? I've played around on the ground with a mate once or twice who does BJJ and trust me, it's a very very fine line between a submission and a break.